Compilation of the clues I could find on Slayer and Graendal
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 29/05/2010 04:26:58 PM
Okay I went through the first 7 books looking for any information that might lead us to the killer ... obviously nothing definitive here, but thought it was worthwhile on a dull Saturday morning...
EoTW clues:
Slayer
Isam and Luc’s childhood stories told briefly
Graendal
Hints that the Forsaken are loose but no mention
TGH
Slayer
Shadow Prophesy alluding to Isam and Luc merging into 1 being
Graendal
More hints about the Forsaken being free but nothing specific
TDR
Slayer
No mention
Graendal
No mention
TSR
Slayer
First mention of the name Slayer
We learn from the Wolves that he can enter TAR in the Flesh (by unknown means), and that he kills wolves forever when there
We learn that Lord Luc and Isam are both in the TR and learn that they are one and the same, or at least can infer from the various big hints
We know that the Myrddraal fear being found by Isam
We learn/see that at least Lord Luc is great fighter, he's been killing Myrddraal all over the TR
We learn that Fain thinks Isam is a "problem for another time"
Graendal
First onscreen mention
We learn she takes “trophies”
Misc
We learn Balefire can destroy the Forsaken
We learn that the Forsaken are not all a united front, and that even amongst the BA there are different orders being given
TFoH
Slayer
No Mention, probably off convalescing from his wounds given by Perrin in TSR
Graendal
First on screen appearance
We learn about her Slaves (Power and Beauty and the heavy use of Compulsion)
We learn that she finds it odd that the Forsaken aren’t actively trying to kill each other
We learn she thinks she is above mere humans
Graendal is aggressive enough to challenge Lanfear in front of other Forsaken and would likely use Balefire in such a fight
We learned that she had carved out a power base and would protect it rather than sitting around plotting against Rand
We learn that Asmodean knew she was in Arad Domon
We learn she pokes around in TAR, spying on the other Forsaken
We know she is aware that Asmodean is teaching Rand and that she is part of the plot to kill/control Rand that Lanfear, Sammael and Rhavin are all part of as well
LoC
Slayer
No mention
Graendal
We learn she remains in cahoots with Sammael and is giving him information on the other FS
We learn that she tends to hide things in plain sight
We learn she already knows of Lanfear and Rahvin’s deaths, and assumes Moghedien and Asmodean are also dead at Rands hands
We learn that Sammael did NOT know that Asmodean was dead
We learn that Graendal is willing to go to great lengths (go to Sharra and steal the rulers) to achieve even small goals
We learn that she hates being threatened in anyway
We learn she is frightened of Rand and will go to great lengths to avoid his detection
We learn that she was a master of mindgames and also some sort of Psychiatrist in the AoL
Misc
The DO already also knew of Asmo’s death
PoD
We learn Graendal looted Sammaels rooms in Ilian
EoTW clues:
Slayer
Isam and Luc’s childhood stories told briefly
Graendal
Hints that the Forsaken are loose but no mention
TGH
Slayer
Shadow Prophesy alluding to Isam and Luc merging into 1 being
Graendal
More hints about the Forsaken being free but nothing specific
TDR
Slayer
No mention
Graendal
No mention
TSR
Slayer
First mention of the name Slayer
We learn from the Wolves that he can enter TAR in the Flesh (by unknown means), and that he kills wolves forever when there
We learn that Lord Luc and Isam are both in the TR and learn that they are one and the same, or at least can infer from the various big hints
We know that the Myrddraal fear being found by Isam
We learn/see that at least Lord Luc is great fighter, he's been killing Myrddraal all over the TR
We learn that Fain thinks Isam is a "problem for another time"
Graendal
First onscreen mention
We learn she takes “trophies”
Misc
We learn Balefire can destroy the Forsaken
We learn that the Forsaken are not all a united front, and that even amongst the BA there are different orders being given
TFoH
Slayer
No Mention, probably off convalescing from his wounds given by Perrin in TSR
Graendal
First on screen appearance
We learn about her Slaves (Power and Beauty and the heavy use of Compulsion)
We learn that she finds it odd that the Forsaken aren’t actively trying to kill each other
We learn she thinks she is above mere humans
Graendal is aggressive enough to challenge Lanfear in front of other Forsaken and would likely use Balefire in such a fight
We learned that she had carved out a power base and would protect it rather than sitting around plotting against Rand
We learn that Asmodean knew she was in Arad Domon
We learn she pokes around in TAR, spying on the other Forsaken
We know she is aware that Asmodean is teaching Rand and that she is part of the plot to kill/control Rand that Lanfear, Sammael and Rhavin are all part of as well
LoC
Slayer
No mention
Graendal
We learn she remains in cahoots with Sammael and is giving him information on the other FS
We learn that she tends to hide things in plain sight
We learn she already knows of Lanfear and Rahvin’s deaths, and assumes Moghedien and Asmodean are also dead at Rands hands
We learn that Sammael did NOT know that Asmodean was dead
We learn that Graendal is willing to go to great lengths (go to Sharra and steal the rulers) to achieve even small goals
We learn that she hates being threatened in anyway
We learn she is frightened of Rand and will go to great lengths to avoid his detection
We learn that she was a master of mindgames and also some sort of Psychiatrist in the AoL
Misc
The DO already also knew of Asmo’s death
PoD
We learn Graendal looted Sammaels rooms in Ilian
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds
- 27/05/2010 12:12:50 PM
2810 Views
I hate to say it, as I love this mystery....
- 27/05/2010 03:01:08 PM
1494 Views
I have a theory on the killer that doesn't involve Slayer...
- 28/05/2010 03:41:23 AM
1295 Views
In addition to Etzel's comments
- 28/05/2010 09:08:45 PM
1174 Views
I'm pretty sure the Myrdraal that killed Caradin's family was a Proto-version of SH *NM*
- 28/05/2010 09:56:58 PM
743 Views
Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin *NM*
- 29/05/2010 04:40:15 PM
706 Views
Re: Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin
- 29/05/2010 09:16:01 PM
1301 Views
Far-fetched, IMO
- 27/05/2010 04:01:05 PM
1603 Views
I don't want Slayer to be the killer
- 27/05/2010 04:33:06 PM
1310 Views
The way you twist things, it certainly seems so!
- 27/05/2010 05:07:22 PM
1406 Views
Bah, hogwash!
- 27/05/2010 05:17:37 PM
1257 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash!
- 27/05/2010 08:14:16 PM
1285 Views
The point is...
- 28/05/2010 08:38:49 AM
1343 Views
Yes, but Fain is a far cry from your average non-channeler
- 28/05/2010 12:01:44 PM
1391 Views
As is Slayer
- 28/05/2010 12:25:07 PM
1271 Views
There is no evidence of this at all
- 28/05/2010 12:32:37 PM
1209 Views
Yeah, the evil guys don't manage to harm the good guys
- 28/05/2010 12:38:57 PM
1194 Views
You always twist the quotes to make them say what Jordan didn't intend to say....
- 28/05/2010 02:20:09 PM
1291 Views
None of this explains how Slayer had opportunity that others didn't
- 27/05/2010 05:12:48 PM
1442 Views
We often see...
- 27/05/2010 05:33:19 PM
1292 Views
I just keep coming back to Slayer needs wild explanations while Graendal is more obvious
- 27/05/2010 05:52:13 PM
1381 Views
Indeed
- 28/05/2010 08:39:14 AM
1236 Views
Well...
- 28/05/2010 10:19:46 AM
1302 Views
Re: Well...
- 28/05/2010 12:20:15 PM
1295 Views
I adressed the points regarding the Fain-comparsion above
- 28/05/2010 12:35:08 PM
1214 Views
your Slayer theory is ridiculously complex!
- 28/05/2010 12:37:08 PM
1282 Views
It just requires to combine some clues from the first 5 books & some common sense
- 28/05/2010 12:44:10 PM
1237 Views
Re: Well...
- 28/05/2010 02:27:40 PM
1411 Views
No...
- 28/05/2010 03:04:41 PM
1294 Views
let's try this another way
- 28/05/2010 03:14:07 PM
1294 Views
The main problem with Graendal is...
- 28/05/2010 05:31:09 PM
1213 Views
Re: The main problem with Graendal is...
- 28/05/2010 09:20:27 PM
1362 Views
my first thought was it was Sammael or Graendal. Come LoC it was clear to me that it was Graendal.
- 28/05/2010 09:44:38 PM
1443 Views
RJ used the expression...
- 29/05/2010 08:17:08 AM
1219 Views
be careful ... your stretching far enough you might hurt yourself
- 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM
1334 Views
- 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM
1334 Views
Re: I don't want Slayer to be the killer
- 27/05/2010 07:47:40 PM
1283 Views
Couple of questions
- 27/05/2010 09:53:05 PM
1297 Views
Be'lal managed to get out NO!
- 27/05/2010 10:08:33 PM
1136 Views
Hmmm
- 27/05/2010 10:27:55 PM
1262 Views
I don't think you can actually cut BF weaves
- 27/05/2010 10:45:34 PM
1165 Views
Hmmm I wonder about that.
- 27/05/2010 10:58:46 PM
1231 Views
I think it would be impossible for someone to react that quickly
- 27/05/2010 11:13:01 PM
1324 Views
Of course you do. Trying to deny it is just silly. Everyone knows your bias. *NM*
- 27/05/2010 08:43:18 PM
644 Views
No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
- 27/05/2010 09:08:48 PM
1280 Views
Re: No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
- 28/05/2010 08:25:46 AM
1262 Views
But look...
- 28/05/2010 09:01:12 AM
1271 Views
if there are clues in TFoH I find it hard to believe that Slayer is involved
- 28/05/2010 12:29:40 PM
1188 Views
The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
- 28/05/2010 12:32:13 PM
1244 Views
Re: The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
- 28/05/2010 12:35:22 PM
1269 Views
RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 12:40:23 PM
1299 Views
Re: RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 12:52:30 PM
1174 Views
Yeah, I know. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 02:51:32 PM
1242 Views
Yet Slayer is no where to be seen between his vanishing after TSR and the start of WH
- 28/05/2010 03:09:44 PM
1261 Views
???
- 28/05/2010 02:19:17 PM
1214 Views
Of course RJ implied that. You should read his quotes about Asmo! *NM*
- 28/05/2010 02:52:32 PM
1246 Views
Here is what RJ said EDIT
- 28/05/2010 03:29:19 PM
1016 Views
Indeed
- 28/05/2010 05:18:35 PM
1162 Views
Re: Indeed
- 28/05/2010 05:26:38 PM
1159 Views
But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 05:33:02 PM
1187 Views
Re: But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 07:05:27 PM
1156 Views
Re: Far-fetched, IMO
- 02/06/2010 07:34:58 PM
1350 Views
Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? *NM*
- 02/06/2010 11:13:04 PM
766 Views
Re: Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot?
- 19/06/2010 12:59:54 AM
1055 Views
Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
- 19/06/2010 03:30:37 AM
1258 Views
Re: Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
- 24/06/2010 09:03:18 AM
1484 Views
The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
- 26/06/2010 02:32:26 PM
973 Views
Re: The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
- 01/07/2010 10:13:53 PM
1396 Views
Lanfear killed Asmo.....
- 28/05/2010 05:05:55 AM
1167 Views
Doesn't make sense
- 28/05/2010 11:09:14 AM
1203 Views
Sorry, Lanfear did it.....
- 29/05/2010 03:47:44 AM
1115 Views
Considering that RJ didn't even necessarily want to reveal it, it was pretty random, yeah. *NM*
- 29/05/2010 08:25:54 AM
713 Views
Death is Moridin "when death took him"; need I say more
*NM*
- 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM
770 Views
*NM*
- 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM
770 Views
There is a quote that refutes this...
- 28/05/2010 10:22:12 AM
1239 Views
He could have recognized Moridan.....due to the True Power in his eyes.
- 29/05/2010 03:49:49 AM
1206 Views
No other Forsaken immediately recognizes Moridin as Ishy because of the saa. *NM*
- 29/05/2010 08:26:44 AM
717 Views
RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever
- 28/05/2010 08:55:01 PM
1266 Views
Re: RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever *NM*
- 28/05/2010 09:24:41 PM
813 Views
I think I found an RJ quote that kills the Slayer theory
- 29/05/2010 01:57:20 PM
1191 Views
If Slayer is actually the killer...
- 29/05/2010 02:20:32 PM
1223 Views
Please, RJ would do as he always had and immediately RAFOd a question like that
- 29/05/2010 02:26:10 PM
1194 Views
Well, I don't think so.
- 29/05/2010 02:43:28 PM
1216 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
- 06/06/2010 05:44:05 AM
1080 Views
If Slayer never met Asmo in the books he could not have killed him
- 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM
1077 Views
- 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM
1077 Views
But Slayer could have met Asmo, when he was killed.. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 01:06:01 PM
1142 Views
Directly contradicts what RJ said "they did not meet in the books"
- 06/06/2010 02:51:50 PM
1114 Views
Not "before" the murder. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 06:03:34 PM
1128 Views
Re: Not "before" the murder. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 10:25:16 PM
1088 Views
He answers the question, if they met "before" the murder. *NM*
- 07/06/2010 07:18:50 AM
749 Views
not if it didn't happen in the books
- 07/06/2010 12:08:34 PM
1032 Views
Compilation of the clues I could find on Slayer and Graendal
- 29/05/2010 04:26:58 PM
1364 Views
I think Asmo's killer was as surprised as he.
- 29/05/2010 09:26:03 PM
1211 Views
That's what I've always thought as well.
- 29/05/2010 10:06:56 PM
1131 Views
You know, there's no direct proof suggesting that Asmo's killer was "surprised".....
- 01/06/2010 04:04:56 AM
1129 Views
except the Author said it was a murder of opportunity
- 01/06/2010 11:13:14 PM
1152 Views
That is simply false.
- 02/06/2010 10:00:27 AM
1222 Views
RJ stated it was a murder of opportunity ... I never said "only"
- 02/06/2010 11:49:23 AM
1292 Views
Of course, it is false
- 02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM
1206 Views
Here are the quotes
- 02/06/2010 12:39:29 PM
1140 Views
As said, those quotes simply don't support that the murder was basically just an unplanned accident. *NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:14:29 PM
746 Views
I disagree. It's pretty much black and white that the opportunity/timing is the key factor to
- 02/06/2010 02:39:03 PM
1053 Views
Actually I like it because it fits Slayer better than Graendal, as pointed out.
*NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM
616 Views
*NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM
616 Views
that makes no sense at all *NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:53:28 PM
803 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
- 06/06/2010 05:47:13 AM
1206 Views
Well...
- 06/06/2010 10:46:13 AM
1190 Views
Logic
- 06/06/2010 02:53:27 PM
1153 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there...
- 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM
1159 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there...
- 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM
1159 Views
I'm just being a smartass
*NM*
- 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM
775 Views
*NM*
- 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM
775 Views
That's not anyone's logic, this argument is simply utter nonsense.
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM
1201 Views
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM
1201 Views
just like thinking Slayer was the killer is
- 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM
1145 Views
- 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM
1145 Views
Yeah...
- 07/06/2010 12:21:31 PM
1254 Views
thinking the top assassin killed someone when it's been stated over and over
- 07/06/2010 12:56:48 PM
1202 Views
Those quotes pretty much show that Graendal is careful...
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM
1351 Views
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM
1351 Views
No they show that she is deliberate!
- 07/06/2010 01:12:29 PM
1233 Views
That are just semantics
- 07/06/2010 01:36:12 PM
1292 Views
and you think it's obvious that Slayer was the premier Shadow assassin prior to WH?
- 07/06/2010 02:06:47 PM
1174 Views
As I explained you several times, I can see why RJ thought it is obvious, yes...
- 07/06/2010 02:17:01 PM
1159 Views
Why wouldn't Graendal head to Caemlyn at that point?
- 07/06/2010 02:36:24 PM
1226 Views
And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
- 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
1270 Views
- 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
1270 Views
Re: And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
- 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM
1234 Views
- 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM
1234 Views
You should re-read the scene where Moghedien tells Nynaeve about it...
- 07/06/2010 03:12:55 PM
1302 Views
That's a different thing than Moghedien saying the plan was canceled
- 07/06/2010 03:15:32 PM
1315 Views
That is essentially what Moghedien said.
- 07/06/2010 03:33:35 PM
1058 Views
um no it's not
- 07/06/2010 04:17:04 PM
1149 Views
It's told after that...
- 07/06/2010 04:46:31 PM
1115 Views
No it doesn't. It tells us that Rahvin, just like all the others had a side plan in place
- 07/06/2010 04:55:43 PM
1261 Views
Yeah...
- 07/06/2010 05:17:59 PM
1187 Views
Funny I feel the same way you do ...
- 07/06/2010 05:25:48 PM
1200 Views
Ah, whatever...
- 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM
1125 Views
- 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM
1125 Views
We are on the exact same page
- 07/06/2010 05:42:48 PM
1157 Views
