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IMO it's easy to disprove Sidious Send a noteboard - 10/06/2010 09:22:23 PM
Dammit Sidious... this is getting irritating as hell. Silviana clearly states that in the night when Egwene will surely gain her full strength, Barasine alone is enough to shield her, but she wants one more person to prevent trickery from Egwene.

Thus, Barasine alone can shield Egwene, meaning Egwene cannot be more than twice as strong as her.


We know for a FACT that Amys cannot hold Egwene for more than a few moments in FoH. If Barasine is weaker than Amys, how on earth can Barasine hold Egwene if Egwene is NOT under the influence of forkroot?

Either RJ was wrong, or BS is wrong. So, who do YOU think is wrong?


Barasine could shield Egwene in KoD, so it was RJ all the way.

Now, Amys said she was exhausted by the effort, but she still did hold the shield. So it isn't true at all that Amys cannot shield Egwene.

By my list, both are stronger than half Egwene's strength, and thus both can indeed shield her. Which is verified by the text.


Amys is at that point where she can hold Egwene with great effort, but if Egwene tried, she might be able to break the shield. Egwene did try and couldn't break it, but Amys said she needed to release saidar because Egwene was too strong.

Either way, this debate has gone off on a tangent. Neither Melaine or Amys are weak women, and Egwene is stronger than both combined. Egwene isn't even top strength - all the Forsaken and some good guys exceed her in power. Logically, the average woman cannot cluster around 50% of maximum strength. If so, then Moiraine was really retarded to think that it would take Aviendha and Egwene to 'perhaps' match one of the Forsaken.

Also it takes at least five women to hold a high powered male. Siuan said that Logain would have escaped if it had been less than six women, which is acceptable proof to me that women peak at 10-20. If they're around 50, then Logain is one hell of a guy.


Egwene is roughly as strong as Amys and Melaine combined. Aviendha's quote in FoH cannot be reasonably interpreted in any other way.

If the Bell Curve is a linear reflection of absolute strength, then Lanfear must be twice as strong as the average woman.

That means someone half as strong as Lanfear must be the average woman, and what's more, MOST women must be clustered around that strength range.

Someone barely more than half the strength of Egwene therefore MUST be weaker than the average woman.

That means that Moiraine is weaker than the average woman.

And THAT means that a HUGE number of channelers must be out there, and ON AVERAGE they must be stronger than Moiraine. Probably around Cadsuane's strength.

And since that seems extremely unlikely, the only logical conclusion is that the Bell Curve cannot be a linear representation of absolute strength.


Elayne says that women as strong as Sheriam are uncommon. Therefore most women are weaker than Sheriam. Sheriam is therefore above 50/100 e.g. 60. Amys is in this range, and Aviendha says that Egwene is stronger than Amys + Melaine = > 110 (60 + 50).

I'm wondering where to put everyone else?

Sure, I agree that the average woman is 50. If you're prepared to take Lanfear up to 200.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 10/06/2010 at 09:22:46 PM
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Several good MAFOs from Dragonmount Etzel - 10/06/2010 07:07:55 PM 2549 Views
Some good RAFOs here Skeeve the Great - 10/06/2010 07:31:56 PM 1265 Views
Yeah... Etzel - 10/06/2010 07:36:55 PM 1188 Views
Maria's answer to question 20 is ground-breaking! Logain - 10/06/2010 07:36:40 PM 1477 Views
No, it merely means that the Bell Curve does not refer to absolute strength... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:42:31 PM 1295 Views
See the question again man! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:48:57 PM 1280 Views
That contradicts your assertion that Moiraine is stronger than the average woman... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:50:11 PM 1346 Views
How? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:54:41 PM 1281 Views
I need to re-evaluate nothing! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:46:20 PM 1286 Views
Think logically for a moment... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:49:10 PM 1108 Views
Who said Egwene is twice as strong as Moiraine? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:52:27 PM 1415 Views
Aviendha did in FoH... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:54:32 PM 1107 Views
Nope! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:55:55 PM 1296 Views
Your quotes are faulty Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:57:18 PM 1282 Views
In what sense though? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:59:00 PM 1328 Views
Forkroot Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:04:50 PM 1265 Views
Again... later that night? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:05:39 PM 1109 Views
What do you mean? Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:07:24 PM 1261 Views
See below... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:11:24 PM 1152 Views
Re: See below... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:12:34 PM 1218 Views
I just did. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:16:09 PM 1079 Views
Well then we disagree Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:18:10 PM 1259 Views
BUT WHAT ABOUT LATER IN THE NIGHT! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:20:21 PM 1093 Views
Ah, you mean later later ... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:29:59 PM 1192 Views
Forkroot wears off, you know? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:45:33 PM 1283 Views
Yes I know Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:05:29 PM 1282 Views
I've explained it before in this thread... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:17:10 PM 1245 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:37:39 PM 1255 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:51:40 PM 1186 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread... Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:05:37 PM 1250 Views
Are you sure you're feeling fine? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:18:44 PM 1275 Views
Re: Are you sure you're feeling fine? Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:29:04 PM 1366 Views
Re: Are you sure you're feeling fine? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:47:00 PM 1164 Views
RJ writes that Amys cannot hold Egwene. BS writes that Barasene can. Who are you gonna believe? Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:31:35 PM 1094 Views
It wasn't BS... both were RJ! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:41:54 PM 1234 Views
In that case, there is no problem... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:45:05 PM 1334 Views
But that isn't what the text says... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:57:42 PM 1057 Views
How can Egwene be strong enough to overcome Katerine and Silviana together then? Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:07:36 PM 1334 Views
She also says Egwene is Aes Sedai in the same sentence... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:25:16 PM 1323 Views
Yeah, both were RJ Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:49:13 PM 1157 Views
Yeah yeah... RJ lied, Maria lied. Only you make sense. I'm finished with this debate. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:59:06 PM 1260 Views
Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:07:52 PM 1277 Views
Really? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:29:22 PM 1098 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:39:21 PM 1253 Views
Re: Really? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:43:41 PM 1110 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:50:23 PM 1264 Views
I haven't refuted? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:53:17 PM 1319 Views
Here's what is clear: Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:02:41 PM 1147 Views
IMO it's easy to disprove Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:22:23 PM 1127 Views
Dude... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:27:34 PM 1071 Views
At least we agree on one thing Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:29:14 PM 1171 Views
No... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:32:06 PM 1141 Views
Re: No... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:43:59 PM 1260 Views
fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:57:25 PM 1088 Views
Re: Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:12:29 PM 1179 Views
Re: fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:34:28 PM 1220 Views
Thought on this darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 01:09:29 PM 1088 Views
yet 4 women can still hold Rand in LoC ... he can't break the Shield until it's down to 3 darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 12:47:43 PM 975 Views
Have to agree with Sidious on this point darius_sedai - 11/06/2010 02:49:58 AM 1103 Views
That was kind of my point... fionwe1987 - 11/06/2010 12:19:23 PM 827 Views
of course Katerine would have complained darius_sedai - 12/06/2010 12:53:31 PM 1222 Views
The rate forkroot wears off? Rurouni_Kenshin - 16/06/2010 12:36:38 PM 1234 Views
You missed that she isn't being given Forkroot at night at all! fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 04:47:59 PM 1103 Views
Typos, screwed up what I meant Rurouni_Kenshin - 17/06/2010 02:31:50 AM 1103 Views
You are... fionwe1987 - 17/06/2010 04:32:47 AM 1339 Views
Maria's other answer adresses this... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:14:54 PM 1009 Views
Then one Aes Sedai cannot shield her. But one did. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:16:41 PM 1114 Views
You can be much weaker than someone, and hold them shielded, if they are already cut off... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:19:15 PM 1113 Views
But, if you are much stronger, you can break that shield... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:22:25 PM 1103 Views
Easy... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:24:59 PM 1075 Views
What has that got to do with it? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:32:56 PM 1272 Views
Amys is not LESS than half of Egwene's strength. You cannot hold someone if you are LESS than half.. Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:47:41 PM 1191 Views
Amys is as strong as Moiraine, at the most one level lower. Barasine is weaker than Katarine, who... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:00:26 PM 1301 Views
I can agree with that. Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:09:07 PM 1083 Views
How can you agree with it? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:13:55 PM 1267 Views
I'm thinking Berowin here... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:16:41 PM 1295 Views
Exactly. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:18:19 PM 1129 Views
... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:12:21 PM 1063 Views
Agreed, but... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:13:59 PM 1228 Views
Re: Agreed, but... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:16:30 PM 1021 Views
Good point... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:18:53 PM 1240 Views
Or, you know, you're wrong? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:27:55 PM 1101 Views
Re: Good point... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:28:02 PM 1327 Views
We've had this discussion before darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 01:59:34 PM 1253 Views
Or, you know, you can have the grace to question your antiquated strength list... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:22:51 PM 1091 Views
The Bell Curve fits perfectly if one simple fact is true... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:31:31 PM 1072 Views
Or, you know, you can stop misinterpreting Aviendha... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:40:05 PM 1173 Views
I'd be perfectly happy to adjust my list if it made sense Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:32:35 PM 1051 Views
Uhhh? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:41:59 PM 1047 Views
Re: Uhhh? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:48:58 PM 1039 Views
DUDE! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:58:59 PM 1074 Views
Re: DUDE! Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:09:11 PM 1031 Views
I explained... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:27:44 PM 1055 Views
Re: I explained... Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:45:58 PM 1223 Views
Rand seems to shield Egwene and Elayne TOGETHER, pretty easily... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:54:03 PM 1703 Views
That's fairly simple, actually... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:08:53 PM 1289 Views
Nope. Rand was also cut off from the Source when he broke a shield held by 3 Aes Sedai... Shannow - 10/06/2010 11:18:41 PM 1265 Views
Because that channeler is much stronger? I'm not getting your confusion here. *NM* fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 11:27:31 PM 599 Views
Your Aes Sedai are close to the average woman in strength, right... Shannow - 10/06/2010 11:42:01 PM 1346 Views
You are making a couple of mistakes darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 02:28:41 PM 1176 Views
You're missing an important point... fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 11:10:55 PM 1144 Views
Yes, what do you mean? You are actually proving our point... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:10:50 PM 1011 Views
No, here's the quote: I hate having to pull out my books with their yellowed pages... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:01:54 PM 1087 Views
Why would she need surprise against two? That was against five of them... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:04:57 PM 1099 Views
That makes no sense whatsoever... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:06:53 PM 1077 Views
Simply this... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:13:42 PM 1097 Views
Very poor evidence Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:11:26 PM 1253 Views
No it isn't... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:18:09 PM 1195 Views
Re: No it isn't... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:32:17 PM 1247 Views
no she said Egwene is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined darius_sedai - 11/06/2010 12:46:29 AM 1164 Views
The actual quote says Amys and Melaine combined... Shannow - 11/06/2010 12:25:07 PM 1214 Views
Here's the problem with that... fionwe1987 - 11/06/2010 12:42:41 PM 1085 Views
Linked circles are more effective than individual channelers... Shannow - 11/06/2010 01:57:43 PM 1185 Views
That much stronger? fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 11:06:18 PM 1243 Views
On this we agree. darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 02:34:45 PM 1046 Views
I think you are misreading her. Skeeve the Great - 10/06/2010 07:47:06 PM 1053 Views
Bingo *NM* Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:51:29 PM 692 Views
Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution. *NM* Logain - 10/06/2010 09:23:36 PM 657 Views
Re: Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution. Skeeve the Great - 10/06/2010 10:11:23 PM 1254 Views
Yes. You can't extrapolate a generalized macro level scale to micro level individuals. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:16:24 AM 1129 Views
I don't agree Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:49:41 PM 1112 Views
BAH! Its infuriating how you have so many blinders... Eerily Aes Sedai of you. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:54:23 PM 1321 Views
Hmm... Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:55:59 PM 1041 Views
Because of the question to which she responded... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:57:55 PM 1030 Views
Re: Because of the question to which she responded... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:06:16 PM 1191 Views
Without contradicting the latter... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:15:11 PM 1097 Views
Ah well Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:20:32 PM 1069 Views
Which is even more evidence... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:23:28 PM 1205 Views
Dude Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:30:57 PM 1256 Views
It isn't omission fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 10:54:47 PM 1204 Views
omg not this again *NM* BlackAdder - 10/06/2010 07:52:26 PM 1197 Views
Great! Two of my OP strength ideas have been solidified! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:39:53 PM 1290 Views
Nope... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:46:31 PM 1161 Views
Who said Cadsuane was 50? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:51:14 PM 1197 Views
So how can Egwene be twice as strong as Moiraine, if Moiraine is at 55? Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:53:11 PM 1068 Views
She cannot be because she isn't. Silviana can shield Egwene alone, for God's sake. So can Amys! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:56:26 PM 995 Views
Amys can't hold her properly Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:59:47 PM 1024 Views
What about later that night? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:02:16 PM 1056 Views
No she didn't darius_sedai - 16/06/2010 03:02:21 PM 1163 Views
No she didn't what? fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 04:46:05 PM 1265 Views
Re: No she didn't what? darius_sedai - 17/06/2010 06:16:16 AM 1061 Views
Re: No she didn't what? fionwe1987 - 17/06/2010 06:02:57 PM 1187 Views
you are arguing in a circle darius_sedai - 17/06/2010 06:31:19 PM 1546 Views
Why do you think it's a linear scale? Rurouni_Kenshin - 16/06/2010 05:25:56 AM 1175 Views
That's simple... fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 06:36:44 AM 1147 Views
Re: That's simple... Rurouni_Kenshin - 16/06/2010 12:27:07 PM 1121 Views
Your concept is not mathematically right. So yeah, forget discussing it. fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 04:41:13 PM 1275 Views
Dang, Cyndane isn't using Cabriana's body. Gher - 10/06/2010 08:25:20 PM 1138 Views
But they didn't look alike anyway. *NM* Etzel - 10/06/2010 08:59:35 PM 688 Views
Eh, yeah. Gher - 12/06/2010 08:24:10 PM 1062 Views
The blue flash RAFO irritates me- I can't see how that will be relevant. The Min thing was new beetnemesis - 10/06/2010 08:50:52 PM 1220 Views
RJ already RAFOed the incident with Thom's knives/daggers before Etzel - 10/06/2010 08:57:52 PM 1303 Views
They RAFO way too much. Tom - 11/06/2010 12:25:56 AM 1041 Views
It isn't, unless she's implying the Creator helped him out or some other such thing RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:56:49 AM 1065 Views
Just to make things clear on the strength thing... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:08:02 PM 1325 Views
It is possible Maria was answering the first question and ignoring the second... Logain - 10/06/2010 09:29:59 PM 1079 Views
That still proves my point... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:33:10 PM 1251 Views
Re: That still proves my point... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:45:39 PM 1114 Views
Then why... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:00:00 PM 1209 Views
Re: Then why... Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:07:56 PM 1091 Views
God, what stupidity! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:10:32 PM 1049 Views
Re: God, what stupidity! Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:16:38 PM 1149 Views
It doesn't have to be 1-100. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:32:17 PM 1086 Views
Re: It doesn't have to be 1-100. Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:41:02 PM 1409 Views
That's a mathematical impossibility... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 11:26:23 PM 1229 Views
Just popping in. I think you're arguing over non-existent delineations. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:44:40 AM 1165 Views
You're pretty much agreeing with me, you know? fionwe1987 - 11/06/2010 12:32:44 PM 1150 Views
Yes. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/06/2010 10:31:00 PM 1245 Views
Re: Just to make things clear on the strength thing... Bored - 14/06/2010 11:21:31 PM 1435 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 11:48:43 PM 1028 Views
Also interesting... Etzel - 10/06/2010 09:38:27 PM 1215 Views
I'm even more confused (parallel worlds and the Pattern) entyti - 10/06/2010 09:48:17 PM 1171 Views
Nah,... DomA - 11/06/2010 11:38:20 AM 1133 Views
Fascinating! entyti - 13/06/2010 02:30:42 AM 1253 Views
You know, these things always end up pissing me off. Tom - 11/06/2010 12:25:05 AM 1156 Views
I think she's saving that info for her WoT Encyclopedia. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:54:38 AM 1232 Views
Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off. TaskmasterJack - 11/06/2010 03:22:53 AM 1240 Views
Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off. DomA - 11/06/2010 12:29:37 PM 1214 Views
I agree Etzel - 11/06/2010 01:14:36 PM 1311 Views
Re: I agree TaskmasterJack - 12/06/2010 03:02:32 PM 1075 Views
BS didn't answer with "Read and find out" Etzel - 12/06/2010 03:28:05 PM 1126 Views
We were speaking about Maria giving a RAFO on the topic, not Sanderson. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 13/06/2010 12:05:17 AM 617 Views
Actually she said "No"... *NM* Etzel - 13/06/2010 01:06:18 AM 720 Views
I'll rephrase then. It was about Maria saying that she considered giving a RAFO on the question. TaskmasterJack - 13/06/2010 01:44:19 AM 1119 Views
Yeah, sorry for the rolly-eyed smiley! Was a bit mean... Etzel - 13/06/2010 09:19:13 AM 1138 Views
I agree with Jack and Sidious and not with you. Tom - 11/06/2010 03:20:30 PM 1226 Views
Well, on the Thom question... Etzel - 11/06/2010 08:25:09 AM 1087 Views
Yeah Sidious - 11/06/2010 08:26:33 AM 1199 Views
Re: Yeah darius_sedai - 15/06/2010 12:25:21 AM 1055 Views
Eh, practically useless. callandor1000 - 14/06/2010 11:50:06 PM 1057 Views
I agree. I think she is saving the good stuff for the encyclopedia. *NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/06/2010 04:17:07 PM 581 Views
Yeah. I do think she's taking advantage of these poor saps, though. callandor1000 - 17/06/2010 03:52:33 PM 1647 Views
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