Not by my reckoning. *Still contains ToM spoilers*
Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 11/11/2010 04:22:59 AM
1. Graendal gets wind of the fact that Rand is coming to Arad Doman. She starts to make contingency plans - the same plans that she advised Sammael to make for if ever Rand appeared on her doorstep.
We know this was not the case, because when she did learn of Rand finding her, she went for the no-plan hasty escape. She had no contingency for Rand appearing on her doorstep.
2. When Aran'gar arrives at her palace, she takes Delana and teaches her Compulsion.
This is wrong. Graendal has to ask Aran'gar whether Delana knows Compulsion. Clearly, she never taught her. Even more clearly, she did not have this prepared since Aran'gar arrived.
Graendal says she will not risk strength and skill, but Delana has neither, and will only know one advanced weave after some training. Graendal needs Delana for this purpose and starts setting up a proxy, well aware that she is going to throw Delana in front of the first sign of the Dragon Reborn.
This again didn't happen. I won't be so petty as to detract from Sidious' theory just because Graendal didn't speak the words he thought she might use, but I do have to point out that Graendal never planned this, and so never intended to use Delana for this purpose.
3. Rand sends in his messenger and Graendal figures out what is happening. She gets Delana to compel the man, while she and Aran'gar make plans.
Graendal did not figure out what was happening when Ramshalan arrives. She says so herself, admitting that "she'd been played" and that she only figured it out at the last second. She also wasn't making any plans with Aran'gar, obviously.
4. Aran'gar senses saidin, and she and Graendal Travel.They deliberately leave Delana behind to die. Graendal doesn't know that Rand will use balefire, but Aran'gar senses so much saidin that Graendal hopes that Rand will take any evidence of saidar as evidence that she was in the palace when he destroyed it by whatever means.
Obviously Graendal didn't take Aran'gar with her, nor did Aran'gar sensing saidin have anything to do with Graendal's actions.
5. The Compulsion is unravelled, but Graendal and Aran'gar are safe. The reason for Delana tagging along with Aran'gar is revealed, as she is sacrificed to perform a masterful ruse.
Aran'gar is not safe, nor was Delana intended as a ruse or brought for this reason.
He got the major point right - that Delana did the Compulsion, and that Graendal survived. In fact, if the scene had gone as Sidious suggested, I might be happier with it. The way it was written makes little sense.
The end result - Graendal's survival - was correct, but that is not sufficient for me to grant this theory credibility. I will accord him points for guessing that Delana would be sacrificed to cause the vanished Compulsion, but the core of Sidious' theory was that Graendal survived because she had planned for this. I argued then and would still argue that this is absurd, and the reality agrees: Graendal was caught completely off guard by Rand's attack. Only the use of heretofore unknown True Power abilities (and I don't think we even knew Graendal could access the True Power before Towers of Midnight, I was certainly under the assumption of Moridin's exclusivity) allowed her to survive.
Sidious' conclusion was correct, but his reasoning was not, so I cannot agree to validate his theory. Because it was all those who opposed his theory who were correct - Graendal did not anticipate Rand's assault, Graendal did not plan for it. And Graendal would not have survived it if not for abilities that were at the time of the reasoning unknown to us.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
This message last edited by Fanatic-Templar on 11/11/2010 at 04:25:27 AM
What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory?
- 13/07/2010 09:00:05 AM
2157 Views
Too convulted to make any sense...
- 13/07/2010 09:22:26 AM
1096 Views
What is the reason Delana is with Graendal?
- 13/07/2010 09:31:36 AM
1176 Views
Indeed...
- 13/07/2010 10:06:32 AM
1081 Views
Re: Indeed...
- 13/07/2010 10:10:43 AM
1142 Views
That is wrong
- 13/07/2010 10:19:32 AM
977 Views
Re: That is wrong
- 13/07/2010 10:29:16 AM
1053 Views
Plus...
- 13/07/2010 12:18:12 PM
893 Views
sorry but no
- 13/07/2010 09:49:13 AM
1103 Views
Exactly
- 13/07/2010 10:14:06 AM
946 Views
It makes perfect sense.
- 13/07/2010 02:33:09 PM
1012 Views
I won't be 100% sure she's dead until we get a solid "she's toast" from either the text
- 13/07/2010 04:21:18 PM
1027 Views
This is actually the first thing that I thought of in that scene *NM*
- 13/07/2010 04:08:48 PM
663 Views
Until I have absolute proof to the contrary.(Confirmation by Harriot or BS)
- 13/07/2010 04:20:49 PM
930 Views
If Graendal didn't know Rand would use balefire, why would she have Delana do the Compulsion?
- 13/07/2010 04:57:10 PM
1209 Views
Yes, Graendal completely outsmarted Rand.
- 13/07/2010 05:56:30 PM
1101 Views
I just think it's funny that people make fun of such a basic plan as convoluted.
- 13/07/2010 06:33:44 PM
1075 Views
Indeed... imagine how a truly complex plan would confound them
- 13/07/2010 08:41:54 PM
987 Views
- 13/07/2010 08:41:54 PM
987 Views
Re: Indeed... imagine how a truly complex plan would confound them
- 13/07/2010 09:09:09 PM
1051 Views
- 13/07/2010 09:09:09 PM
1051 Views
What are you talking about? I was agreeing with you, it's absurdly simple.
- 13/07/2010 09:27:22 PM
1052 Views
Huh
- 14/07/2010 05:22:51 AM
1042 Views
Why did the lair explode?
- 14/07/2010 06:17:32 AM
1002 Views
While I generally agree with you...you missed an important detail.
- 14/07/2010 02:06:31 PM
1185 Views
What did Rand tell Ramshalan...
- 14/07/2010 04:29:04 PM
888 Views
Re: What did Rand tell Ramshalan...
- 14/07/2010 04:52:11 PM
977 Views
...
- 14/07/2010 09:22:21 PM
1156 Views
he doesn't have to read Rands mind
- 14/07/2010 09:41:59 PM
926 Views
Provide a quote.
- 15/07/2010 04:10:06 AM
1058 Views
read the chapter
- 10/08/2010 09:22:02 PM
896 Views
Right, that's why I asked. Because I know you can't.
- 10/08/2010 10:00:14 PM
1021 Views
sigh ... always so aggressive ... why you gotta hate
- 11/08/2010 03:23:31 AM
1110 Views
- 11/08/2010 03:23:31 AM
1110 Views
Oh if that's what you want
- 11/08/2010 04:45:19 PM
1026 Views
Yes, he pretty much says out loud that he can't just wipe out her fortress.
- 11/08/2010 06:57:39 PM
939 Views
Re: Yes, he pretty much says out loud that he can't just wipe out her fortress.
- 11/08/2010 09:20:10 PM
932 Views
why does it have to be a well thought out plan?
- 14/07/2010 04:14:17 PM
907 Views
She would have to teach her pawn Compulsion.
- 14/07/2010 04:30:12 PM
888 Views
No she'd only have to show Delana a weave to duplicate
- 14/07/2010 04:48:24 PM
984 Views
Nonsense.
- 14/07/2010 09:30:01 PM
1031 Views
yet Sorilea, can duplicate Cadsuane's weaves after one quick glance
- 14/07/2010 09:52:01 PM
1029 Views
Which ones?
- 15/07/2010 04:14:23 AM
905 Views
Re: I just think it's funny that people make fun of such a basic plan as convoluted.
- 14/07/2010 05:40:11 PM
909 Views
She's so smart, she knows Rand will bring along Nynaeve to check Delana's Compulsion
- 13/07/2010 08:32:19 PM
913 Views
we've seen any number of times that a Channeler can make an exact copy of weaves
- 14/07/2010 04:10:41 PM
1048 Views
I so desperately want you to be right.
- 14/07/2010 06:30:16 AM
1055 Views
Graendal being alive would make more of a statement...
- 14/07/2010 06:53:48 AM
969 Views
Re: What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory?
- 14/07/2010 05:44:38 PM
898 Views
Re: What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory?
- 14/07/2010 07:21:29 PM
986 Views
Re: What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory?
- 10/08/2010 09:12:17 PM
1092 Views
Sounds about right. Wonder if he intends to try and get Callandor? *NM*
- 13/08/2010 07:41:47 AM
355 Views
Honestly, if she's still alive, how is she going to die?
- 16/07/2010 05:49:06 AM
909 Views
Ahh, just remembered that some people think some Forsaken will survive Tarmon Gai'don. Still... *NM*
- 16/07/2010 05:51:41 AM
478 Views
Re: What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory?
- 10/11/2010 04:09:41 AM
879 Views
Why? *Towers of Midnight spoilers*
- 10/11/2010 04:41:11 AM
862 Views
Because he was right, that's why.
- 11/11/2010 03:39:39 AM
878 Views
Not by my reckoning. *Still contains ToM spoilers*
- 11/11/2010 04:22:59 AM
846 Views

