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Re: astounding "evidence" The_Archer Send a noteboard - 11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM
100 Lanfear
98 Cyndane/Alivia
96 Graendal/Sharina
95 Nynaeve (full)
93 Semirhage
90 Mesaana
88 Moghedien
80 Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha
72 Bode
65 Cadsuane
60 Meilyn/Karene
48 Elaida/Romanda/Lelaine/Moiraine/Siuan (old)
42 Amys
40 Sheriam
38 Anaiya/Melaine
32 Delana
28 Alanna
24 Chesmal ** assumes this is the level of the majority of "average AS
22 Adeleas
20 Siuan (new)
16 Daigian
14 below novice
10 below novice
5 Morgase

Like all of these lists, these numbers are completely arbitrary!

What we really know know is that Egwene is roughly the equal of Melaine + Amys (both of whom are stronger than almost all AS) and that Moiraine (currently the highest normal AS) is about 3x Daigian. There is a sharp uptick from Moiraine to Meylin/Kerene (per New Spring) and that Cadsuane is stronger than them but still below Egwene or Elayn, and there is still room between them and Cadsuane for Bode. We've also been told that AS cover a broader range than people think, that only the strongest 2/3 of women have the requisite strength to become AS.

What we now have is:

Moiraine = 3 Daigains
Cadsuane = 4 Daigians
Bode = 4.5 Daigians
Egwene = 5 Daigians
Moghedien = 5.5 Daigians
Mesaana = 5.6 Daigians
Semirhage = 5.75 Daigians
Nynaeve = 5.9 Daigians
Graendal = 6 Daigians
Alivia = 6.12 Daigains
Lanfear = 6.25 Daigians

It makes way more sense to me that there are bigger differentials in the middle of the range than at the extremes ... the top level people are all pretty close over all IMO ... with the extremes of strength starting around Egwene and working up to Lanfear... IMO Egwene (or possibly Bode) and company are the weakest of the strong rather than the strongest of the weak, I'd say Cadsuane is the strongest of the weak. It fits thematically into her being the strongest AS in over 1000 years as well.


I almost agree with this list - except I still feel Semi and Messy are probably stronger - at no point does it show Moggy weaker than Nyneave. It always states them as equal - fans have decided to argue over whether Nyneave was at her full potential or half potential etc.

Anyway irrespective of where Nyneave and Moggy stand vis a vie each other - i think the difference if any would hardly be considerable.

As for Mesaana - putting aside BS's remark - judging Messy by what Eggy says - I think she is stronger than Nyneave. Egwene wouldnt have be awed.. when she met Messy - if she was weaker than Nyneave - as she is used to Nyneaves level strength and more, ie Sharina!!

But of all the crazy lists I have seen - this is the best!
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More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken Sidious - 09/12/2010 03:45:27 PM 3482 Views
Yes. Cannoli - 09/12/2010 04:39:58 PM 1813 Views
No. moratcorlm - 09/12/2010 05:34:57 PM 1638 Views
Indeed! *NM* darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:39:47 PM 880 Views
Actually...exponential or at least non-linear makes alot of sense to me Myrdhyn - 09/12/2010 06:27:29 PM 1543 Views
Nope. Then Rand would be able to crush 13 Aes Sedai with ease. Shannow - 09/12/2010 06:32:53 PM 1754 Views
Three things: Myrdhyn - 09/12/2010 06:47:30 PM 1582 Views
That quote is incorrect as it contradicts all other evidence from later books... Shannow - 09/12/2010 06:51:02 PM 1559 Views
If strength isn't linear and on a steep enough curve that could work. Myrdhyn - 09/12/2010 07:22:24 PM 1599 Views
I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM 1486 Views
I wasn't aware this was an issue? LadyLorraine - 09/12/2010 04:45:02 PM 1612 Views
I just hope aMoL finally reveals who's going to be the Dragon Reborn...these lesser debates can hang *NM* Cannoli - 09/12/2010 05:26:37 PM 965 Views
*Spoiler* TGS and TOM revealed that Egwene is the DR. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 10/12/2010 07:57:53 PM 1350 Views
Agreed. Joel - 20/12/2010 01:17:32 AM 1650 Views
not really darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 04:46:42 PM 1576 Views
and you'll note that none of the angreal are considered particularly strong darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 04:48:14 PM 1501 Views
She probably weaved them separately on account of being pregnant *NM* Kieran - 09/12/2010 04:56:12 PM 936 Views
Pregnancy seems to be interfere with her ability to grasp the power darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:06:15 PM 1548 Views
I don't know if it's a more complex CHANNELING undertaking, though LadyLorraine - 09/12/2010 05:42:57 PM 1466 Views
I don't have the book handy, but she talks about the level of complexity darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:45:52 PM 1587 Views
hmm, but we still don't know if it's the weaves or the process that is so complex LadyLorraine - 09/12/2010 06:28:14 PM 1393 Views
Well according to Monaella it makes it harder to Channel, but from Elayne's POV darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 06:52:55 PM 1495 Views
Re: not really Zeratul - 09/12/2010 05:16:02 PM 1519 Views
Angreal have buffers moratcorlm - 09/12/2010 05:38:45 PM 1532 Views
none of them are very strong darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:38:49 PM 1466 Views
We never really get a feel for their relative strengths redqueen - 09/12/2010 05:51:38 PM 1360 Views
Re: We never really get a feel for their relative strengths sleepinghour - 09/12/2010 10:00:23 PM 1642 Views
Exactly moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 09:36:52 AM 1648 Views
Yes. In PoD Aviendha states that the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal almost doubles her strength... Shannow - 09/12/2010 06:30:41 PM 1541 Views
you have the wrong angreal and the wrong strength darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 07:07:18 PM 1502 Views
Nope. You are the one whose got the wrong angreal... Shannow - 09/12/2010 07:15:38 PM 1323 Views
where is that quote my friend? darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 08:07:50 PM 1394 Views
PoD: The Breaking Storm Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM 1351 Views
Ah yes, ... "almost 2x as much" still doesn't support your assertion that Nyn is 50% above Elayne darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 08:20:37 PM 1457 Views
That's a gross skewing of what that sentence means... Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:05:05 PM 1454 Views
Don't be absurd... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:21:00 PM 1462 Views
Yes, but does BS know that? Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:26:10 PM 1407 Views
Nonsense... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:45:17 PM 1410 Views
she does not say that! she says Moghedien could kill her before she could react. so could Daigian darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 09:34:50 PM 1531 Views
"The only Aes Sedai who could hope to match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar..." Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:44:25 PM 1555 Views
And yet... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:48:34 PM 1460 Views
No, Egwene does NOT think she can defeat Mesaana in a One Power battle... Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:59:35 PM 1696 Views
Here are te quotes... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 10:10:09 PM 1490 Views
Did you not read the quote above, made by Egwene in the heat of battle with Mesaana? Shannow - 09/12/2010 10:34:05 PM 1518 Views
It might interest you to know that that was Katerine! fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 12:15:51 AM 1303 Views
Oh nonsense Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:43:44 AM 1398 Views
But that's his point. Gher - 10/12/2010 06:01:59 AM 1397 Views
its a useless point Sidious - 10/12/2010 10:11:00 AM 1479 Views
Yes, utterly useless... Shannow - 10/12/2010 11:46:15 AM 1450 Views
Dude, you need to re-read the books... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:15:11 PM 1391 Views
he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 08:19:16 PM 1398 Views
Re: he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:21:49 AM 1471 Views
potentially, but Mesaana later turns up with BA using the 19 stolen ter'angreal. darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:41:41 PM 1363 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM 1383 Views
Re: I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM 1435 Views
What? fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 11:19:57 PM 1517 Views
Re: What? Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:20:19 AM 1445 Views
Oh boohoo... fionwe1987 - 11/12/2010 07:55:58 PM 1508 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 06:47:17 AM 1308 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 06:47:18 AM 1444 Views
which only tells us that Nynaeve is equal to the Forsaken. Has nothing to do with Egwene being darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 01:51:12 PM 1259 Views
Nynaeve has been channeling (albeit blocked) for close to 10 years darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 02:24:57 PM 1543 Views
Think about the logic of what you're proposing... Shannow - 10/12/2010 02:39:56 PM 1535 Views
It's what's in the friggin books! darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 03:33:08 PM 1443 Views
Duplicate post - deleted *NM* Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:19:05 PM 727 Views
Re: Yes. moratcorlm - 09/12/2010 07:49:12 PM 1479 Views
You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:03:51 PM 1608 Views
where this falls apart is that Daigian at a 10 is too weak darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 08:16:17 PM 1509 Views
Nope... Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM 1238 Views
now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM 1408 Views
Nope... Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:42:58 PM 1412 Views
all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 08:04:02 PM 1467 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW sleepinghour - 11/12/2010 11:59:55 PM 1388 Views
that's the point I'm making darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 12:58:38 AM 1265 Views
I don't think Elayne was forced Zeratul - 12/12/2010 04:33:26 PM 1423 Views
I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 04:43:29 PM 1233 Views
Re: I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 04:46:50 PM 1464 Views
Thanks for the quote Zeratul - 12/12/2010 07:17:30 PM 1526 Views
perhaps the opportunity hasn't arisen? And of course it's politic to appologize to the Amyrlin darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 07:41:11 PM 1385 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW sleepinghour - 12/12/2010 08:04:21 PM 1425 Views
that's where I'm estimating Nynaeve being close to Siuan and Moiraine in EoTW darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 08:30:54 PM 1388 Views
Re: now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say sleepinghour - 10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM 1643 Views
nope darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 02:05:00 PM 1522 Views
Mesaana Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:43:07 AM 1330 Views
agreed darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 01:48:59 PM 1353 Views
Re: agreed Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:38:28 PM 1239 Views
very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 05:03:43 PM 1350 Views
Re: very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:22:54 AM 1503 Views
yes and no darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:47:28 PM 1434 Views
Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM 1498 Views
OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels. Shannow - 10/12/2010 12:00:48 PM 1383 Views
"clear evidence" moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 01:27:01 PM 1429 Views
Laughable interpretation... Shannow - 10/12/2010 01:31:57 PM 1416 Views
Re: Laughable interpretation... moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 03:34:01 PM 1466 Views
Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:27:30 PM 1374 Views
Doesn't the forkroot explain that? *NM* Gher - 10/12/2010 04:47:53 PM 935 Views
couple of thoughts here darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 08:01:44 PM 1419 Views
Re: couple of thoughts here fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 11:27:19 PM 1346 Views
that's what I said! EDIT darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 04:03:59 PM 1264 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 11/12/2010 07:58:38 PM 1426 Views
Katerine is a pain in the ass and Silviana wasn't about to risk only one woman holding that shield darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 08:26:29 PM 1285 Views
Leane was shielded by two sisters as well sleepinghour - 11/12/2010 11:14:08 PM 1318 Views
I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 11:22:12 PM 1360 Views
Re: I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells sleepinghour - 12/12/2010 12:04:33 AM 1460 Views
I agree with that completely. darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 01:03:54 AM 1386 Views
Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like? fionwe1987 - 12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM 1438 Views
re-read the section my friend. EDIT darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 03:58:28 PM 1376 Views
Dude... fionwe1987 - 12/12/2010 06:29:43 PM 1357 Views
did you read the quote? They discuss how much they gave her on the way to the Tower! darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 07:39:55 PM 1452 Views
Not one of those things answers my rather simple question... fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 02:27:44 AM 1425 Views
because it's the first time Egwene has been dosed with Forkroot darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 03:55:18 AM 1337 Views
She knows but she doesn't know? fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 05:35:55 AM 1433 Views
She knows that Nynaeve had told her it dampened her ability darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 05:13:23 PM 1347 Views
And she doesn't know any details... fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 07:19:12 PM 1364 Views
this conversation is so pointless darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 10:43:35 PM 1255 Views
Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM 1258 Views
Re: Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. Sidious - 14/12/2010 11:06:55 AM 1277 Views
Of course its obvious now! fionwe1987 - 14/12/2010 12:44:59 PM 1444 Views
it was always obvious that to me. The first thing Egwene thinks is about what the drug does to her darius_sedai - 18/12/2010 05:07:38 AM 1296 Views
Shielding Sidious - 13/12/2010 08:01:19 PM 2809 Views
Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 10:50:09 PM 1413 Views
Re: Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO Sidious - 14/12/2010 04:25:20 AM 1549 Views
There is, actually... fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 11:28:42 PM 1309 Views
Meh Sidious - 14/12/2010 04:22:45 AM 1417 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2010 04:37:50 AM 1430 Views
Re: Well... Sidious - 14/12/2010 10:52:55 AM 1403 Views
Tell Darius that... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2010 12:47:19 PM 1351 Views
of course Katerine is redundant! 2 women of Barasine and Katerine's strength darius_sedai - 18/12/2010 05:00:50 AM 1317 Views
Re: Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:31:25 AM 1509 Views
um, Elayne was in the process of bleeding to death and then had just been Healed darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:50:27 PM 1450 Views
You forget... fionwe1987 - 11/12/2010 08:02:03 PM 1450 Views
astounding "evidence" darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 09:58:47 PM 1459 Views
Re: astounding "evidence" The_Archer - 11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM 1510 Views
thanks darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:54:54 PM 1608 Views
Re: thanks The_Archer - 12/12/2010 12:49:52 PM 1330 Views
We're not in disagreement for the most part darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 04:23:02 PM 1320 Views
Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part The_Archer - 12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM 1438 Views
Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 05:13:46 PM 1415 Views
Re: Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken The_Archer - 12/12/2010 06:35:02 PM 1438 Views
All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 07:50:59 PM 1424 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen The_Archer - 12/12/2010 11:05:58 PM 1478 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen The_Archer - 12/12/2010 11:11:29 PM 1423 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen The_Archer - 12/12/2010 11:14:47 PM 1444 Views
I don't get the logic here... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:41:18 PM 1456 Views
which was one of my first thoughts in reading the scene! *NM* darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 09:43:54 PM 954 Views
It doubles her strength. Nynaeve is only 50% stronger. So she only needs half of it to match Nynaeve Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:46:42 PM 1370 Views
And...? fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:51:57 PM 1394 Views
Personally, I thought it had something to do with not harming the babies. Shannow - 09/12/2010 10:01:10 PM 1322 Views
That was my interpretation too Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:36:38 AM 1362 Views
Re: That was my interpretation too moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 09:31:12 AM 1536 Views
what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 04:12:34 PM 1483 Views
The oaths proposal is after the jailhouse break in the timeline Zeratul - 10/12/2010 04:31:12 PM 1350 Views
*Double post, please delete* *NM* Zeratul - 10/12/2010 04:35:54 PM 803 Views
You are correct! So clearly worry about the babies was not a reason to not draw more darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 05:05:30 PM 1358 Views
And... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:32:28 PM 1361 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:41:25 PM 1381 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 05:02:10 PM 1361 Views
and as a poster above points out the scene is AFTER she's stabbed darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 05:07:17 PM 1401 Views
Yes, I did know that. moratcorlm - 11/12/2010 04:06:00 PM 1417 Views
meant that response to go to Sidious ... sorry! darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 08:44:40 PM 1446 Views
Oops. *NM* moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 07:15:57 PM 868 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken The_Archer - 10/12/2010 08:22:21 PM 1331 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken sleepinghour - 10/12/2010 08:33:25 PM 1407 Views
We have very little to go on with the FS strengths... darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 09:04:33 PM 1487 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken The_Archer - 10/12/2010 09:12:12 PM 1264 Views
they can actually sense both which is how Elayne knows Nynaeve is not at full potential darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 09:22:35 PM 1430 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken The_Archer - 10/12/2010 09:31:13 PM 1460 Views
Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 10:08:16 PM 1372 Views
Re: Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around The_Archer - 10/12/2010 10:50:32 PM 1437 Views
It's more than just fear of Moridin that makes her choose an attack from such a distance darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 11:10:57 PM 1344 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken sleepinghour - 10/12/2010 10:50:20 PM 1433 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:29:30 AM 1594 Views
Help im new! The_Archer - 13/12/2010 07:41:04 PM 1479 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. The Angry Druid - 13/12/2010 09:56:45 PM 1582 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. The_Archer - 13/12/2010 10:50:25 PM 1364 Views
How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? *NM* Lord Haart - 18/12/2010 02:53:22 PM 905 Views
Re: How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? Sidious - 18/12/2010 08:21:24 PM 1292 Views
Look at the topic. As if we needed evidence that Elayne is weaker than the Foresaken. Lord Haart - 19/12/2010 04:41:25 AM 1328 Views
you misread the topic Sidious - 19/12/2010 05:30:26 AM 1464 Views
But the debate is moronic because... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2010 05:43:07 AM 1378 Views
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