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that's the point I'm making darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 12/12/2010 12:58:38 AM
She was being Forced for those first 18 months but then for most of the time between TFoH and WH she was on her own and her progression of strength slowed down to normal rates.


We don't know what Nynaeve's strength was in TEotW, but in TDR, Siuan says Nynaeve is "already as strong as any woman in the Tower," which means Moiraine level at least. By TSR, she was a match for Moghedien. In PoD, Nynaeve still hadn't reached full strength according to Elayne. I agree that Nynaeve progressed much slower after leaving the Tower, but there must still be a significant difference in strength between her potential and Moggy.

Egwene seems to have been forced more than the others--Nicola says in ACoS no one ever gained as much of her strength as fast as Egwene. Elayne also comments in WH that she and Aviendha are still behind Egwene although they have the same potential strength.


I think it's pretty clear that Nynaeve, who had been unconsciously channeling for the better part of a decade, would have been very close to Moiraine (who is maybe 50% of Nynaeve) level when the series started. This also explains Moiraine's bonfire v. candles comment as Nynaeve would walk in the door and already have more strength than any living AS, and in a Tower where many women were starting to question if Strength was on the decline! We know she's already pretty close to Siuan's strength at the very beginning of TGH and certainly after Falme had grown even more ... by TSR IMO she had hit about 90% of her potential (her growth going from Moiraine to Moghedien took about 18 months). Then within the next 9 months (the timeline between her fight with Moghedien and the Cleansing) she continued to grow at a more normal pace.

Egwene was damane which likely forced her from a very beginner to close to Moiraine's level in just a few months. That's probably 60% of her strength in like 2 months ... no wonder Nicola thinks no other woman had ever gained so much of her strength so quickly. But we also know that Egwene continued to grow rapidly between TSR (where at the beginning she's a bit stronger than Moiraine) and when she becomes Amyrlin. It explains why she and Elayne are so afraid of Rand in that scene too ... his growth is even more astonishing! He would have been more than 2x (men have levels above women) than either of the girls at this point, even if he was only at 85% so of course they feel like kittens next to him.

We know she and Aviendha both are more than 50% of absolute female strength by the end of TFoH as Moiraine indicates the two combined could overwhelm a Female Forsaken, but at this point Aviendha had only been channeling for a couple of months and was likely not anywhere close to Egwene... she may have been as strong as Moiraine at this point. Meaning Egwene at 85% of her potential added to Aviendha at maybe 60% could overwhelm a FS level female.

Further more it explains why Egwene was more cautious in her assessment of Moghedien (when Moghedien escaped Egwene may have only been at about 85% ... still far stronger than any woman in camp, but a much longer step down from Moghedien than she is now, remember too that Egwene could not Channel for a couple of months at all after the attack by Lanfear which likely slowed her growth, and spent more time learning to Dreamwalk than Channel under the WOs ... now she believes she can take on Mesaana head to head in ToM ... if she's full strength now she's much closer to the FS than before.

She was probably very close to if not already at her full potential by WH, leaving Elayne and Aviendha behind by a decent margin, and now only a bit shy of the Weaker Forsaken (Moghedien and Messana), but probably still a goodly step down from the most powerful (Nynaeve level). I've always thought Nynaeve was about 20% stronger than Egwene ... or the equivalent of a woman like Daigian.

The debate has always been that many posters here feel Egwene is more like 50% of Nynaeve's strength. That seems preposterous to me given all the evidence in the text to the contrary. We know Egwene is stronger than two Strong AS combined, and we know that strength follows a bell curve, so if Egwene was only around a 50-60 on a 100 point scale there should be literally thousands of women at her level and thus far, Forsaken aside, we've seen only about 10 women who can match or exceed her potential. We've been exposed to something like 10,000 women who can channel between the various groups and in every instance we hear about Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha's strength ... the WF told Elayne she had never met anyone so strong as her and Nynaeve (and they were only able to produce 2 women), the WO have produced 3 women aside from Aviendha (and we don't know for certain that Tamela and Viendre are actually above Elayne since she was not at full potential when she encountered them) and we've seen 1 damane (maybe 2 if Tuon's strongest Sera is ever quantified) who out match them.

It's a consistent theme that the "Wondergirls" are very close to the top level of strength. But I think people forget sometimes that the timelines in the books aren't the same in every book. The first 4 books are more than 1/2 of the total series timeline and it's obvious that none of the girls have peaked by then!

In the end it doesn't much matter since the odds of getting a direct quote are basically NIL ... but it makes for lots of conversations on the forum!
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 09/12/2010 03:45:27 PM 3032 Views
Yes. - 09/12/2010 04:39:58 PM 1373 Views
No. - 09/12/2010 05:34:57 PM 1217 Views
Indeed! *NM* - 09/12/2010 05:39:47 PM 682 Views
Actually...exponential or at least non-linear makes alot of sense to me - 09/12/2010 06:27:29 PM 1155 Views
Nope. Then Rand would be able to crush 13 Aes Sedai with ease. - 09/12/2010 06:32:53 PM 1380 Views
Three things: - 09/12/2010 06:47:30 PM 1138 Views
I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal... - 10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM 1080 Views
I wasn't aware this was an issue? - 09/12/2010 04:45:02 PM 1163 Views
Agreed. - 20/12/2010 01:17:32 AM 1259 Views
not really - 09/12/2010 04:46:42 PM 1161 Views
and you'll note that none of the angreal are considered particularly strong - 09/12/2010 04:48:14 PM 1104 Views
She probably weaved them separately on account of being pregnant *NM* - 09/12/2010 04:56:12 PM 734 Views
Pregnancy seems to be interfere with her ability to grasp the power - 09/12/2010 05:06:15 PM 1128 Views
I don't know if it's a more complex CHANNELING undertaking, though - 09/12/2010 05:42:57 PM 1041 Views
Re: not really - 09/12/2010 05:16:02 PM 1067 Views
Angreal have buffers - 09/12/2010 05:38:45 PM 1080 Views
none of them are very strong - 09/12/2010 05:38:49 PM 1064 Views
We never really get a feel for their relative strengths - 09/12/2010 05:51:38 PM 902 Views
Re: We never really get a feel for their relative strengths - 09/12/2010 10:00:23 PM 1205 Views
Exactly - 10/12/2010 09:36:52 AM 1221 Views
Yes. In PoD Aviendha states that the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal almost doubles her strength... - 09/12/2010 06:30:41 PM 1102 Views
you have the wrong angreal and the wrong strength - 09/12/2010 07:07:18 PM 1056 Views
Nope. You are the one whose got the wrong angreal... - 09/12/2010 07:15:38 PM 886 Views
where is that quote my friend? - 09/12/2010 08:07:50 PM 963 Views
PoD: The Breaking Storm - 09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM 871 Views
Ah yes, ... "almost 2x as much" still doesn't support your assertion that Nyn is 50% above Elayne - 09/12/2010 08:20:37 PM 999 Views
That's a gross skewing of what that sentence means... - 09/12/2010 09:05:05 PM 1032 Views
Don't be absurd... - 09/12/2010 09:21:00 PM 1047 Views
Yes, but does BS know that? - 09/12/2010 09:26:10 PM 967 Views
Nonsense... - 09/12/2010 09:45:17 PM 1026 Views
she does not say that! she says Moghedien could kill her before she could react. so could Daigian - 09/12/2010 09:34:50 PM 1138 Views
"The only Aes Sedai who could hope to match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar..." - 09/12/2010 09:44:25 PM 1133 Views
And yet... - 09/12/2010 09:48:34 PM 1065 Views
No, Egwene does NOT think she can defeat Mesaana in a One Power battle... - 09/12/2010 09:59:35 PM 1290 Views
Here are te quotes... - 09/12/2010 10:10:09 PM 1054 Views
Did you not read the quote above, made by Egwene in the heat of battle with Mesaana? - 09/12/2010 10:34:05 PM 1076 Views
It might interest you to know that that was Katerine! - 10/12/2010 12:15:51 AM 878 Views
Oh nonsense - 10/12/2010 04:43:44 AM 989 Views
But that's his point. - 10/12/2010 06:01:59 AM 1008 Views
its a useless point - 10/12/2010 10:11:00 AM 1078 Views
Yes, utterly useless... - 10/12/2010 11:46:15 AM 1032 Views
Dude, you need to re-read the books... - 10/12/2010 04:15:11 PM 973 Views
he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true - 10/12/2010 08:19:16 PM 984 Views
Re: he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true - 11/12/2010 07:21:49 AM 1052 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... - 10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM 930 Views
Re: I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... - 10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM 996 Views
What? - 10/12/2010 11:19:57 PM 1029 Views
Re: What? - 11/12/2010 07:20:19 AM 1040 Views
Oh boohoo... - 11/12/2010 07:55:58 PM 1065 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. - 10/12/2010 06:47:17 AM 903 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. - 10/12/2010 06:47:18 AM 1022 Views
Nynaeve has been channeling (albeit blocked) for close to 10 years - 10/12/2010 02:24:57 PM 1102 Views
Think about the logic of what you're proposing... - 10/12/2010 02:39:56 PM 1046 Views
It's what's in the friggin books! - 10/12/2010 03:33:08 PM 1046 Views
Duplicate post - deleted *NM* - 09/12/2010 08:19:05 PM 531 Views
Re: Yes. - 09/12/2010 07:49:12 PM 1039 Views
You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... - 09/12/2010 08:03:51 PM 1149 Views
where this falls apart is that Daigian at a 10 is too weak - 09/12/2010 08:16:17 PM 1096 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM 806 Views
now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say - 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM 895 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2010 09:42:58 PM 985 Views
all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW - 11/12/2010 08:04:02 PM 1040 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW - 11/12/2010 11:59:55 PM 975 Views
that's the point I'm making - 12/12/2010 12:58:38 AM 858 Views
I don't think Elayne was forced - 12/12/2010 04:33:26 PM 995 Views
Re: now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say - 10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM 1193 Views
nope - 10/12/2010 02:05:00 PM 1123 Views
Mesaana - 10/12/2010 04:43:07 AM 885 Views
agreed - 10/12/2010 01:48:59 PM 961 Views
Re: agreed - 10/12/2010 04:38:28 PM 839 Views
very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother - 10/12/2010 05:03:43 PM 879 Views
Re: very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother - 11/12/2010 07:22:54 AM 1060 Views
yes and no - 11/12/2010 03:47:28 PM 1026 Views
Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... - 10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM 1071 Views
OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels. - 10/12/2010 12:00:48 PM 910 Views
"clear evidence" - 10/12/2010 01:27:01 PM 1001 Views
Laughable interpretation... - 10/12/2010 01:31:57 PM 1035 Views
Re: Laughable interpretation... - 10/12/2010 03:34:01 PM 1038 Views
Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... - 10/12/2010 04:27:30 PM 987 Views
Doesn't the forkroot explain that? *NM* - 10/12/2010 04:47:53 PM 715 Views
couple of thoughts here - 10/12/2010 08:01:44 PM 1036 Views
Re: couple of thoughts here - 10/12/2010 11:27:19 PM 962 Views
that's what I said! EDIT - 11/12/2010 04:03:59 PM 841 Views
Well... - 11/12/2010 07:58:38 PM 1063 Views
Katerine is a pain in the ass and Silviana wasn't about to risk only one woman holding that shield - 11/12/2010 08:26:29 PM 903 Views
Leane was shielded by two sisters as well - 11/12/2010 11:14:08 PM 922 Views
I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells - 11/12/2010 11:22:12 PM 933 Views
Re: I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells - 12/12/2010 12:04:33 AM 1021 Views
I agree with that completely. - 12/12/2010 01:03:54 AM 966 Views
Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like? - 12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM 1039 Views
re-read the section my friend. EDIT - 12/12/2010 03:58:28 PM 919 Views
Dude... - 12/12/2010 06:29:43 PM 922 Views
did you read the quote? They discuss how much they gave her on the way to the Tower! - 12/12/2010 07:39:55 PM 987 Views
Not one of those things answers my rather simple question... - 13/12/2010 02:27:44 AM 997 Views
because it's the first time Egwene has been dosed with Forkroot - 13/12/2010 03:55:18 AM 940 Views
She knows but she doesn't know? - 13/12/2010 05:35:55 AM 1002 Views
She knows that Nynaeve had told her it dampened her ability - 13/12/2010 05:13:23 PM 960 Views
And she doesn't know any details... - 13/12/2010 07:19:12 PM 959 Views
this conversation is so pointless - 13/12/2010 10:43:35 PM 807 Views
Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. - 13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM 845 Views
Re: Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. - 14/12/2010 11:06:55 AM 854 Views
Of course its obvious now! - 14/12/2010 12:44:59 PM 1053 Views
Shielding - 13/12/2010 08:01:19 PM 2399 Views
Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO - 13/12/2010 10:50:09 PM 985 Views
There is, actually... - 13/12/2010 11:28:42 PM 903 Views
Meh - 14/12/2010 04:22:45 AM 993 Views
Well... - 14/12/2010 04:37:50 AM 1015 Views
Re: Well... - 14/12/2010 10:52:55 AM 990 Views
Tell Darius that... - 14/12/2010 12:47:19 PM 919 Views
Re: Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... - 11/12/2010 07:31:25 AM 1124 Views
You forget... - 11/12/2010 08:02:03 PM 1050 Views
astounding "evidence" - 10/12/2010 09:58:47 PM 1039 Views
Re: astounding "evidence" - 11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM 1052 Views
thanks - 11/12/2010 03:54:54 PM 1188 Views
Re: thanks - 12/12/2010 12:49:52 PM 890 Views
We're not in disagreement for the most part - 12/12/2010 04:23:02 PM 870 Views
Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part - 12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM 1001 Views
I don't get the logic here... - 09/12/2010 09:41:18 PM 1031 Views
which was one of my first thoughts in reading the scene! *NM* - 09/12/2010 09:43:54 PM 783 Views
It doubles her strength. Nynaeve is only 50% stronger. So she only needs half of it to match Nynaeve - 09/12/2010 09:46:42 PM 1001 Views
And...? - 09/12/2010 09:51:57 PM 1005 Views
Personally, I thought it had something to do with not harming the babies. - 09/12/2010 10:01:10 PM 903 Views
That was my interpretation too - 10/12/2010 04:36:38 AM 942 Views
Re: That was my interpretation too - 10/12/2010 09:31:12 AM 1081 Views
what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene - 10/12/2010 04:12:34 PM 1071 Views
The oaths proposal is after the jailhouse break in the timeline - 10/12/2010 04:31:12 PM 931 Views
*Double post, please delete* *NM* - 10/12/2010 04:35:54 PM 613 Views
And... - 10/12/2010 04:32:28 PM 971 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene - 10/12/2010 04:41:25 PM 959 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene - 10/12/2010 05:02:10 PM 984 Views
and as a poster above points out the scene is AFTER she's stabbed - 10/12/2010 05:07:17 PM 992 Views
Yes, I did know that. - 11/12/2010 04:06:00 PM 972 Views
meant that response to go to Sidious ... sorry! - 11/12/2010 08:44:40 PM 1053 Views
Oops. *NM* - 10/12/2010 07:15:57 PM 680 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 08:22:21 PM 915 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 08:33:25 PM 980 Views
We have very little to go on with the FS strengths... - 10/12/2010 09:04:33 PM 1049 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 09:31:13 PM 1034 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 10:50:20 PM 1020 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 11/12/2010 07:29:30 AM 1176 Views
Help im new! - 13/12/2010 07:41:04 PM 1047 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. - 13/12/2010 09:56:45 PM 1125 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. - 13/12/2010 10:50:25 PM 958 Views
How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? *NM* - 18/12/2010 02:53:22 PM 698 Views
Re: How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? - 18/12/2010 08:21:24 PM 944 Views
Look at the topic. As if we needed evidence that Elayne is weaker than the Foresaken. - 19/12/2010 04:41:25 AM 945 Views
you misread the topic - 19/12/2010 05:30:26 AM 1074 Views
But the debate is moronic because... - 19/12/2010 05:43:07 AM 925 Views

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