Active Users:248 Time:05/05/2024 06:56:08 AM
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? fairfax Send a noteboard - 17/12/2010 03:07:40 AM

It seems to me, that she is a very odd leader, a leader without a power base. When I look at other leaders for the Light, they all have a power base, a group of people who shares something essential with them, a reason to follow them.

Mat has his Band. They follow him to survive till the Last Battle.

Perrin has the Two River folks, and the refuges with him will probably settle into the Two River area. They follow him to have safety and future prosperity in the Two River area.


Rand has the Aiel, who follow him to have a future with honor. Those who don't believe so had already joined the Shaido. Despite the lack of evidence so far, most of the Aiel still believe Rand will bring them great honor, based on faith in dreams, fortellings, and the WO's work behind the scenes. But they do support Rand out of a genuie belief, and they will continue to support Rand as long as they continue to believe in him.

Elayne has the Houses of Andor. They all want safety and prosperity. And when they saw her having the same desire as them, and having the capability of a good Queen, those Houses became her power base.

But who can Egwene rely on? Who form the power base of Egwene? As far as I can tell, Egwene just pit one group of AS against another group of AS, and hang on to the position without any group to call her own. Even the Green did not support her any stronger than any other Ajah, as can be seen from the secret Hall meeting. I think her lack of a power base is due to her lacking an identity of her own.


Egwene actually has a huge power base, and it is growing. She is the Amyrlin, and has the powers of the office. She has the power of the purse, she can spend Tower money where she wants. She has the power of appointment. She can appoint Sisters who are loyal to her to positions of power, she can appoint Sisters who are troublemakers to far meaningless offices. Elaida sent Teslyn to Ebou Dar. She has the power to deal with rulers of other countries.

Egwene power is also growing. Egwene already has Sitters who are loyal to her including Doesine, Yukiri, and Saerin. After the Sitters, and Ajah heads the next 4 most influencai Aes Sedai are loyal to Egwene. Nyneave the most powerful Aes Sedai, Elayne the next most powerful Aes Sedai, Silviana the Keeper, and the Mistress of Novices. Egwene also brought 1500 new novices into the Tower. The existing novices are loyal to Egwene, the 1500 new novices will be loyal to her. In the next 20 years most if not all of these will become Aes Sedai and will tend to be loyal to Egwene.


As I think harder on this, I believe based on Egwene's character growth so far, she is not fit for a leader. Let us Look back into her history. In EoTW, she want to be the best water carrier. When She met the Aiel Wise Ones, she want to be the best Aiel. When she joins the rebels, she want to be the best AS. She would take up the traits of whoever she come in contact with, and grow into that role very quickly.


What is wrong with wanting to be the best? Most people will follow someone who is the best. Isn't being a leader getting to follow you? Sports teams are always asking there best players to be leaders on their teams. To help the other talented players get the most out of their ability.


That, to me, is the trait of a Great Follower. She would be a Great Administrator, after someone else had set up all the rules. In fact, Rand saw through this, and ask her to gather the world's army for him. That is percisely the job of an administrator.

An administrator does not need a power base, it only needs to evenly apply the rules given. A leader on the other hand, needs to have a vision, an idea that her followers can aspire to, and a way to realize that vision.


The vision thing like opening the apprentice book to anyone with the ability to channel not matter how old and how strong? The vision thing like getting the Windfinders and Wise Ones to exchange their channelers in training with the Tower? The vision thing about making the Tower more responsive the people in Randland.


She can follow the rules very well, and take advantage of the rules very well. Her time with the Rebel AS had proven so. But so far, I don't see her coming up with any good rules, a vision of her own. Her flip-flop on the Three Oaths. Her insistence on the Tests. Her denial of her Dream about alliance with the Seanchan. She is not a good leader. John McCain was captured and tortured in Vietnam. And I am not sure if Egwene can claim her experience with the Seanchan is worse than John McCain's. John McCain can go to Vietnam without his personal grudges. Can Egwene do the same? If she want to be a good political leader, she must be able to do that, and put aside her personal feelings.


Your position Egwene is not a good leader because she hasn't transformed the Tower into perfection in the less than 3 weeks she has been Amyrlin of the united Tower? Why did Egwene insist Nyneave take the test? She wanted Nyneave to have the support of the Aes Sedai. Cadsuane and other Aes Sedai did not treat Nyneave with the respect she deserved. Egwene wanted Nyneave to advise her which would be easier if Nyneave took the test and the Three Oaths. Good leaders get good people to help them. So she changed her mind about the Three Oaths. Everybody changes their mind. Egwene listened to Siuan, thought about it and changed her mind. Winston Churchill changed his party twice. Does that make Churchill a bad leader? Churchill is regarded as the best war time leader in the 20th Century. So what is she hasn't come to terms with the Seanchan yet? You say John McCain went to Vietnam without personal grudges. Yea, 30 years later. What do you think McCain's feelings were less than two years after he was realeased from North Vietnam?

Egwene isn't perfect but no one in the books has been perfect.
Reply to message
Egwene, a poor leader? - 16/12/2010 05:59:15 PM 2052 Views
Egwene isn't supposed to be a leader. She's a dictator and a politician. - 16/12/2010 08:21:13 PM 1208 Views
Well! No love lost there - 17/12/2010 01:52:59 PM 692 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 16/12/2010 09:35:44 PM 992 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 16/12/2010 10:53:20 PM 916 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 17/12/2010 03:07:40 AM 1015 Views
Exactly how loyal do you think Nynaeve and Elayne are? - 17/12/2010 04:52:34 AM 787 Views
Re: Exactly how loyal do you think Nynaeve and Elayne are? - 17/12/2010 05:44:30 AM 894 Views
That was the case a few books back - 17/12/2010 07:44:32 AM 884 Views
Re: That was the case a few books back - 17/12/2010 10:14:36 AM 852 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 17/12/2010 02:30:48 PM 931 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 17/12/2010 08:25:39 PM 724 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 18/12/2010 05:06:21 AM 884 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 19/12/2010 08:41:31 PM 770 Views
Torturing Nynaeve for exclusively her own political ends. *NM* - 20/12/2010 12:14:55 AM 495 Views
Re: Torturing Nynaeve for exclusively her own political ends. - 20/12/2010 01:24:12 AM 822 Views
And the most painful torments were caused by Egwene - 20/12/2010 09:31:44 AM 950 Views
That's not quite true. - 20/12/2010 06:47:33 PM 750 Views
That's not quite accurate. - 21/12/2010 01:22:26 AM 1034 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 20/12/2010 12:57:42 AM 761 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 20/12/2010 02:02:05 AM 837 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 22/12/2010 07:08:37 AM 778 Views
She has the same power base as any Amyrlin - the Aes Sedai, the artisans, Guards & citizens of TV - 17/12/2010 05:51:20 PM 879 Views
Ta'veren vs. Mary Sue - 17/12/2010 07:33:28 PM 1190 Views
I see them as being the same thing. - 17/12/2010 08:11:30 PM 867 Views
I don't think the case can be made for Rand having it easy - 17/12/2010 11:04:58 PM 785 Views
Funniest statement I've ever seen on here. - 18/12/2010 05:22:28 AM 884 Views
Agree with your comments. - 20/12/2010 03:12:32 PM 1076 Views
You need to post more about Egwene - 17/12/2010 08:16:19 PM 837 Views
Nah. Just a hyopcrite. *NM* - 17/12/2010 09:28:28 PM 439 Views
Yes, but for completely different reasons... - 18/12/2010 12:35:23 AM 900 Views
Yes, communication is key. - 18/12/2010 05:32:01 AM 784 Views
You think Egwene has more power than Tuon? - 18/12/2010 12:27:01 PM 746 Views
Re: You think Egwene has more power than Tuon? - 18/12/2010 02:41:25 PM 683 Views
Definitely... - 18/12/2010 03:24:12 PM 763 Views
Where does the 200000 number come from? *NM* - 18/12/2010 03:36:22 PM 405 Views
That's not right... - 19/12/2010 12:56:25 AM 734 Views
Re: That's not right... - 19/12/2010 11:38:54 PM 815 Views
What's said above. Plus - 19/12/2010 11:00:42 AM 711 Views
More explanations... - 20/12/2010 02:51:25 AM 726 Views
Re: More explanations... - 20/12/2010 09:40:46 AM 805 Views
Aiel, Cairhien and Andor are NOT under Egwenes power. - 20/12/2010 02:46:44 PM 797 Views
Re: More explanations... - 20/12/2010 03:58:58 PM 923 Views
An Amyrlin doesn't really have a power base. - 18/12/2010 05:43:12 AM 848 Views
I think comparing Egwene to McCain is asking for trouble on several fronts. - 20/12/2010 12:33:04 AM 727 Views
She has a pretty powerful weapon... - 20/12/2010 02:41:32 AM 770 Views
RJ is more powerful. - 20/12/2010 03:25:49 AM 870 Views
I'd advise a re-read. Of ToM, and maybe the whole series... - 20/12/2010 03:58:03 AM 810 Views
Re: I'd advise a re-read. Of ToM, and maybe the whole series... - 21/12/2010 09:08:20 PM 789 Views
Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... - 20/12/2010 09:46:22 AM 853 Views
Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... - 20/12/2010 09:55:03 AM 722 Views
Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... - 20/12/2010 10:27:59 AM 778 Views
One example of this... - 20/12/2010 11:15:03 AM 847 Views
Re: One example of this... - 20/12/2010 11:22:10 AM 704 Views
Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... - 20/12/2010 11:08:35 AM 781 Views
That's not quite true. - 20/12/2010 10:35:45 PM 780 Views

Reply to Message