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Re: But you are just undervaluing Egwene's struggles in comparison to the other characters. Lord Haart Send a noteboard - 22/12/2010 05:28:01 PM
The a'dam is the closest thing to being mindtrapped or Compelled, so I consider that quite significant and not something to be dismissed so easily, especially since she was so young and quite undeveloped as a character when she went through that.

It just seems to me that Egwene went through bad and traumatic events and didn't really get anything worthwhile in exchange. Compared to Rand, Mat and Perrin, it doesn't look like she got a reward for all of her struggles or at least IMHO becoming the leader of the AS seems more like a punishment than a prize.


Given how she thinks of it, I disagree. She holds her current position to be the most important in the world.

For all the issues that Rand, Mat and Perrin went through, they got to experience other moments where they really felt that they achieved a victory, which makes their sacrifices worthwhile in the end.


So did Egwene. She did well with the Wise Ones, she went straight from Accepted to Amyrlin and actually kept the position. Going from a tavern maid to becoming the most powerful woman in the world (after Tuon imo) is a pretty big reward, given that she expressedly WANTS the power.

To be blunt, Nynaeve has had a lot of moments where she shined, but she never really went through any struggles, indignities or moments where she was completely under someone elses' power so in many ways, she is more of a Mary Sue than Egwene is.


I'd agree that Nynaeve's biggest enemy is herself, but she got over that. I'd say that her early encounters with Moghedien fit the "completely under someone else's power" bill pretty well. She also acts for other people, and understands other people. Her relationship with Rand is one of the most meaningful of the series.

Every time Egwene's had a moment in the spotlight, it always turns out to be connected to someone else. Though she Shielded the Black Ajah Sister, it was Mat that had to release her and the others from the Stone. Though she defeated Mesaana, it had more to do with the Dreamspike Perrin brought to Tar Valon that trapped the Forsaken in T'A'R and then Gawyns' protection of her against the bloodknives. When she defeated the Seanchan, she ended up being rescued after she collapsed by Gawyn, Siuan and Gareth.


Those of us that don't like Egwene don't give other characters points for things like winning battles. They get points for selflessness and empathy. Like when Rand tells Nynaeve "thank you for caring, when I cannot". Egwene did well to take control of the tower, but in some ways it seemed overly contrived, and she also hasn't done as much with it as we'd like. Why isn't she preparing for TG more strenuously? It's a perfect rallying point. What are the battle ajah doing? Why hasn't she sent a delegation to Rand, as she so thoroughly thought through in TGS?

For me, it seems that the issue many fans have with Egwenes' character arc is that RJ intends for her to be considered a hero alongside Rand, Mat, Nynaeve and Perrin but she is never really given any moment to shine like they do. And then when she is given a moment that could be considered a victory, fans want to minimize it and tear her down for it.


This is partly true, because we had huge expectations about AS being powerful and wise, but they turned out to be largely weak. So Egwene controlling them seems strange. She has no inherent title like Rand does, nor did she come to rule with Perrin's honesty or Mat's battle brilliance. She fits the role of Amyrlin well imo, and she is no less capable of wielding power than most other characters. Her weakness is her inability to put greater concerns ahead of her personal concerns for the tower and the AS.

It's sad how much ire she provokes in fans because I really don't think she's gotten a chance to do anything that earned it.


It's more the missed opportunities for me. Why not bring Siuan closer? Why not actually publicly recognize Nynaeve's achievements? Why not actually try to speak to Rand as a person? Compare Egwene's treatment of Rand to Elayne's treatment of Mat and Perrin.

IMO, I wouldn't be surprised if Halima (aka Arangar) actually placed some small but strategic amounts of compulsion in Egwene's mind. Some of her behaviors seems decidedly odd, and not very different to Dark Rand's. Almost like she was affected by the Taint.
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Egwene, a poor leader? - 16/12/2010 05:59:15 PM 2051 Views
Egwene isn't supposed to be a leader. She's a dictator and a politician. - 16/12/2010 08:21:13 PM 1207 Views
Well! No love lost there - 17/12/2010 01:52:59 PM 692 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 16/12/2010 09:35:44 PM 991 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 16/12/2010 10:53:20 PM 915 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 17/12/2010 03:07:40 AM 1014 Views
Exactly how loyal do you think Nynaeve and Elayne are? - 17/12/2010 04:52:34 AM 786 Views
Re: Exactly how loyal do you think Nynaeve and Elayne are? - 17/12/2010 05:44:30 AM 893 Views
That was the case a few books back - 17/12/2010 07:44:32 AM 883 Views
Re: That was the case a few books back - 17/12/2010 10:14:36 AM 852 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 17/12/2010 02:30:48 PM 931 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 17/12/2010 08:25:39 PM 723 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 18/12/2010 05:06:21 AM 883 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 19/12/2010 08:41:31 PM 769 Views
Torturing Nynaeve for exclusively her own political ends. *NM* - 20/12/2010 12:14:55 AM 494 Views
Re: Torturing Nynaeve for exclusively her own political ends. - 20/12/2010 01:24:12 AM 821 Views
And the most painful torments were caused by Egwene - 20/12/2010 09:31:44 AM 949 Views
That's not quite true. - 20/12/2010 06:47:33 PM 750 Views
That's not quite accurate. - 21/12/2010 01:22:26 AM 1033 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 20/12/2010 12:57:42 AM 760 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 20/12/2010 02:02:05 AM 836 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader? - 22/12/2010 07:08:37 AM 778 Views
She has the same power base as any Amyrlin - the Aes Sedai, the artisans, Guards & citizens of TV - 17/12/2010 05:51:20 PM 878 Views
Ta'veren vs. Mary Sue - 17/12/2010 07:33:28 PM 1189 Views
I see them as being the same thing. - 17/12/2010 08:11:30 PM 866 Views
I don't think the case can be made for Rand having it easy - 17/12/2010 11:04:58 PM 785 Views
Funniest statement I've ever seen on here. - 18/12/2010 05:22:28 AM 884 Views
Agree with your comments. - 20/12/2010 03:12:32 PM 1075 Views
But you are just undervaluing Egwene's struggles in comparison to the other characters. - 20/12/2010 06:17:17 PM 1181 Views
Re: But you are just undervaluing Egwene's struggles in comparison to the other characters. - 22/12/2010 05:28:01 PM 948 Views
You need to post more about Egwene - 17/12/2010 08:16:19 PM 836 Views
Nah. Just a hyopcrite. *NM* - 17/12/2010 09:28:28 PM 439 Views
Yes, but for completely different reasons... - 18/12/2010 12:35:23 AM 899 Views
Yes, communication is key. - 18/12/2010 05:32:01 AM 784 Views
You think Egwene has more power than Tuon? - 18/12/2010 12:27:01 PM 744 Views
Re: You think Egwene has more power than Tuon? - 18/12/2010 02:41:25 PM 682 Views
Definitely... - 18/12/2010 03:24:12 PM 763 Views
Where does the 200000 number come from? *NM* - 18/12/2010 03:36:22 PM 404 Views
That's not right... - 19/12/2010 12:56:25 AM 733 Views
Re: That's not right... - 19/12/2010 11:38:54 PM 814 Views
What's said above. Plus - 19/12/2010 11:00:42 AM 711 Views
More explanations... - 20/12/2010 02:51:25 AM 725 Views
Re: More explanations... - 20/12/2010 09:40:46 AM 804 Views
Aiel, Cairhien and Andor are NOT under Egwenes power. - 20/12/2010 02:46:44 PM 796 Views
Re: More explanations... - 20/12/2010 03:58:58 PM 922 Views
An Amyrlin doesn't really have a power base. - 18/12/2010 05:43:12 AM 848 Views
I think comparing Egwene to McCain is asking for trouble on several fronts. - 20/12/2010 12:33:04 AM 726 Views
She has a pretty powerful weapon... - 20/12/2010 02:41:32 AM 769 Views
RJ is more powerful. - 20/12/2010 03:25:49 AM 870 Views
I'd advise a re-read. Of ToM, and maybe the whole series... - 20/12/2010 03:58:03 AM 810 Views
Re: I'd advise a re-read. Of ToM, and maybe the whole series... - 21/12/2010 09:08:20 PM 789 Views
Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... - 20/12/2010 09:46:22 AM 852 Views
Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... - 20/12/2010 09:55:03 AM 721 Views
Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... - 20/12/2010 10:27:59 AM 777 Views
One example of this... - 20/12/2010 11:15:03 AM 846 Views
Re: One example of this... - 20/12/2010 11:22:10 AM 704 Views
Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... - 20/12/2010 11:08:35 AM 780 Views
That's not quite true. - 20/12/2010 10:35:45 PM 780 Views

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