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Re: Wow. DomA Send a noteboard - 19/11/2012 04:26:09 PM
You can't really substantiate that opinion. There are several quotes stating that Ishamael equalled Lews Therin in power.


But none of them is verbatim, all of them are interpretations from AOL texts by third agers, and we cban't be sure the texts themselves truly referred to his OP raw strength and not to the power he wielded in the Shadow being comparable to LTT's in the Light. The other problem is that we know this comes from AS interpretation of AOL texts (or worse, Breaking and post-Breaking ones), and today's AS judge "power" on raw saidar potential, whereas all the signs in the series suggest AOLers also include skills when they speak of an Aes Sedai's power (they differentiate between strength and global power), that raw strength is only a factor in their global description (which only makes sense in a world full of angreal...). Mierin was as strong as any woman, yet she was only an Aes Sedai of middling power who never achieved anything worthy of a third name honorific. Her OP skills musn't be so amazing for someone as strong, she was a good OP scientist, good enough to enter the Collam Daan, but by the standards of her Age not remarkable, not enough to get any public attention for her skills. Just that might suggest she's not as powerful as LTT, that her mastery over saidar isn't enough to match his strength in saidin by higher efficiency.

The problem with Ishamael being so strong in saidin is that if he is, combined with his status as Nae'blis, it's extremely hard to understand why Demandred doesn't hate him just as much as he hates LTT. He envies Moridin's status, but nothing else. Demandred acts toward Moridin as if he is the stronger of the two.

Moridin is clearly strong, but I don't think we can be in any way certain of his exact strength, not even how he compares in raw strength to Demandred (who was second only to LTT) or Aginor (who had rare amazing skills in some areas that could very well taint his description as "powerful", unless we have a direct quote Dashiva matches Rand or almost in raw strength).



I've been saying this for ten years. Great to see you saying it so unexpectedly.

Totally agree.


Well I've been saying for years now the Forsaken info from the AOL is unreliable unless it comes from one of them directly or from LTT's memories, and even then we have to pay great attention to the context.

We don't agree on all things in this. For instance it's clear LTT and Bel Medar developped great fighting/warfare related skills, but I don't agree the quotes about them being "the greatest of the Age" are reliable to judge of their OP skills. All we can be certain of is that it refers to their social status. Both were Guild administrators of very high standing, and both were high profile public figures (novelists, it appears - Jordan's little joke). It's fairly doubtful they were the best channelers of their time pre WOS. Neither were probably matches, not even close, for the best channelers at the Collam Daan. There's only two Chosen we know had exceptional, remarkable OP skills in their Age beyond any doubt, and they're Aginor and Semirhage. Aginor more than Semirhage. AS used the OP for music, so maybe Asmodean shone in that area, but we can't be sure. Graendal's reknown had nothing to do with her skills or strength. For now there's no solid evidence LTT's skills were that exceptional, and by extension Demandred's. The Chosen (incl. Demandred) all seem to find Mesaana's knowledge reliable and useful, for instance, and she was a failed OP scholar... That gives an idea where the top scientists stood, if the Chosen consider Mesaana knowledgeable (and curiously, none of them ever referred to Lanfear's scholarly knowledge... which highly suggests her speciality was fairly narrow, and obviously it was tel'aran'rhiod)...
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How many standard deviations is Lanfear - 15/11/2012 06:04:39 PM 2302 Views
Well... - 15/11/2012 07:02:45 PM 1308 Views
Hmm... - 15/11/2012 07:25:34 PM 1434 Views
see we CAN agree on stuff - 15/11/2012 07:56:12 PM 1275 Views
- 18/11/2012 08:37:22 PM 1141 Views
We've always been close with everything except the scale - 18/11/2012 10:29:07 PM 1183 Views
Re: - 18/11/2012 11:07:17 PM 1363 Views
Re: - 19/11/2012 05:16:00 AM 1194 Views
Re: - 19/11/2012 03:13:01 PM 1179 Views
They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5% - 19/11/2012 03:19:19 PM 1204 Views
Re: They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5% - 19/11/2012 04:01:43 PM 1400 Views
Re: They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5% - 19/11/2012 09:04:04 PM 1158 Views
Hmmm... - 20/11/2012 02:08:40 AM 1237 Views
Perhaps, but Egwene is also being a bit dramatic in the scene as she managed - 20/11/2012 04:28:57 AM 1176 Views
Nope... - 20/11/2012 03:13:13 PM 1238 Views
I believe she is being over dramatic - 20/11/2012 03:26:24 PM 1123 Views
Keep believing that... - 20/11/2012 03:30:14 PM 1270 Views
*shrugs* - 20/11/2012 03:49:10 PM 1228 Views
Tired and forkroot are the same now? - 20/11/2012 03:55:22 PM 1106 Views
No it's the literary device - 20/11/2012 04:04:28 PM 1249 Views
This is getting ridiculous... - 20/11/2012 04:43:13 PM 1117 Views
You are missing my point completely - 20/11/2012 04:50:46 PM 1081 Views
Impossible. Daigian is exactly 0.32SD below the mean - 19/11/2012 11:06:04 AM 1183 Views
You keep saying that, but it is either a linear or a non-linear distribution - 19/11/2012 09:09:32 PM 1234 Views
That's the whole point. Thanks for finally seeing it. - 19/11/2012 09:43:27 PM 1196 Views
keep believing that ... but you making up numbers isn't really relevant *NM* - 20/11/2012 04:29:44 AM 772 Views
Please show me a number that is made up. The 0.32SD for Daigian is a rule of statistics. - 20/11/2012 07:15:48 AM 1148 Views
Go read Fionwe's post about it *NM* - 20/11/2012 02:33:19 PM 774 Views
Is that before or after she started juicing? - 15/11/2012 11:04:14 PM 1175 Views
Wouldn't it be 1 in 105 million? - 21/11/2012 04:56:19 PM 1037 Views
Are you sure that it is a normal distribution? - 16/11/2012 04:21:02 PM 1243 Views
Ugh. I hate power level discussions. For real world applications, it should be kind of meaningless - 16/11/2012 10:28:49 PM 1134 Views
I don't really agree - 18/11/2012 08:40:53 PM 1104 Views
Perhaps, but we've seen that a MUCH weaker Channeler can win in a duel - 19/11/2012 09:13:48 PM 1151 Views
Re: Perhaps, but we've seen that a MUCH weaker Channeler can win in a duel - 20/11/2012 08:10:01 AM 1126 Views
probably ... Lanfear/Cyndane is clearly remarkably skilled - 20/11/2012 02:35:09 PM 1169 Views
Since I've proven that it's not a normal distribution in units of absolute strength, SDs don't apply - 17/11/2012 07:48:21 PM 1183 Views
You have proven nothing, except that you have an opinion *NM* - 18/11/2012 02:21:35 AM 749 Views
You simply don't get it. It is mathematically a fact. There is no opinion involved. - 18/11/2012 02:19:40 PM 1019 Views
Only because you've assigned numeric values. That you created. - 18/11/2012 02:40:51 PM 1148 Views
It doesn't matter what figure you use... - 18/11/2012 03:01:56 PM 1035 Views
What if Daigian is one third Lanfear's strength? - 18/11/2012 04:37:58 PM 1188 Views
We have a limit for Daigian's strength, as you well know. - 18/11/2012 05:41:49 PM 1156 Views
Are you kidding me? - 18/11/2012 09:07:38 PM 1280 Views
Sure you can - 18/11/2012 10:09:31 PM 1182 Views
Re: Sure you can - 18/11/2012 10:54:50 PM 1165 Views
You're right, though its 37.5% - 19/11/2012 12:21:29 AM 1117 Views
Oops, typo! - 19/11/2012 02:54:25 AM 1162 Views
Again, not possible, due to Daigian being just 0.3SD below the Mean - 19/11/2012 08:37:01 AM 1114 Views
Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 19/11/2012 04:05:12 PM 1043 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 19/11/2012 05:55:02 PM 996 Views
Egwene is about as strong as Melaine and Amys combined - 19/11/2012 09:19:50 PM 1119 Views
Re: Egwene is about as strong as Melaine and Amys combined - 20/11/2012 02:11:26 AM 1194 Views
Forkroot in every case - 20/11/2012 04:32:26 AM 1117 Views
No! - 20/11/2012 03:15:16 PM 1105 Views
I'm not going to go re-read the books to you on this - 20/11/2012 03:39:46 PM 1132 Views
You need to read it for yourself, since you're completely confused. - 20/11/2012 03:54:26 PM 1093 Views
Not going to argue this with you. - 20/11/2012 04:09:44 PM 1052 Views
Your own example disproved your point... - 20/11/2012 04:39:25 PM 1171 Views
let's see, she's both asleep and would need hours to regain her strength - 20/11/2012 04:43:17 PM 1072 Views
Enough! - 20/11/2012 05:04:06 PM 1129 Views
LOL ... whatever. You go on believing that ... no one else sees it this way. *NM* - 20/11/2012 05:20:52 PM 737 Views
What a brilliant argument! - 20/11/2012 05:25:18 PM 1141 Views
this is why I refuse to continue this debate - 20/11/2012 05:31:11 PM 1082 Views
Re: Your own example disproved your point... - 20/11/2012 05:10:15 PM 1172 Views
Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than - 20/11/2012 05:26:31 PM 1177 Views
Re: Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than - 20/11/2012 05:31:50 PM 1136 Views
Re: Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than - 20/11/2012 05:42:53 PM 1126 Views
Excuse me? - 20/11/2012 05:28:48 PM 1180 Views
see we can agree on the relative strength of Egwene v. Forsaken - 20/11/2012 05:35:07 PM 1136 Views
??? - 20/11/2012 05:37:01 PM 1234 Views
2 middling sisters - 20/11/2012 05:45:27 PM 1167 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 20/11/2012 02:26:47 AM 1073 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 20/11/2012 09:03:40 AM 1101 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 20/11/2012 02:59:08 PM 1141 Views
None of this is backed by any evidence... - 20/11/2012 03:24:12 PM 1073 Views
who said Cadsuane was 1.5x Moiraine or more? - 20/11/2012 04:03:13 PM 1082 Views
Nope... - 20/11/2012 04:41:35 PM 1108 Views
wrong - 20/11/2012 04:48:50 PM 1025 Views
My bad. Mized up 1/3 and 2/3. - 20/11/2012 05:05:05 PM 1147 Views
gotcha *NM* - 20/11/2012 05:46:21 PM 705 Views
Better evidence? LOL! - 20/11/2012 03:18:55 PM 1117 Views
Huh? How did you come to that conclusion? - 20/11/2012 04:40:56 PM 1122 Views
Exactly *NM* - 20/11/2012 04:55:28 PM 1075 Views
BEcause Cadsuane is close on the heels of Egwene? - 20/11/2012 05:10:50 PM 1035 Views
I'm not arguing that. I agree that Cadsuane is pretty close to Egwene - 20/11/2012 05:50:34 PM 1155 Views
Re: Better evidence? LOL! - 20/11/2012 05:00:47 PM 1036 Views
Interesting, but let's go with your figures... - 19/11/2012 06:54:54 AM 1147 Views
Indeed - 19/11/2012 08:16:44 AM 1209 Views
Rand is sort of a special case - 20/11/2012 04:25:02 AM 1073 Views
Regarding Mesaana... - 20/11/2012 08:42:56 AM 1108 Views
You continue to mix two things - 20/11/2012 03:24:44 PM 1032 Views
No - 20/11/2012 04:54:19 PM 1266 Views
You are mistaken - 20/11/2012 05:04:40 PM 1120 Views
Yes she did Darius! - 20/11/2012 05:27:36 PM 1043 Views
Yet there is no duel - 20/11/2012 06:01:17 PM 1055 Views
Explain the .3xSD thing to me... - 19/11/2012 04:58:57 PM 1277 Views
Probably, but the AS have no idea what 37.5% means - 19/11/2012 02:59:26 AM 1072 Views
It's irrelevant - 19/11/2012 03:46:42 AM 1143 Views
Agreed. Daigian is the marker of the absolute bottom of Aes Sedai strength. - 19/11/2012 06:55:41 AM 1108 Views
Daigian - 19/11/2012 08:12:19 AM 1112 Views
It is a direct marker due to RJ's quote - 19/11/2012 08:50:26 AM 1140 Views
You missed my point - 19/11/2012 09:08:42 AM 1058 Views
Re: You missed my point - 19/11/2012 02:18:33 PM 1165 Views
Asmodean would never have made the comment about 13 weakest AS - 20/11/2012 04:41:11 AM 1077 Views
Re: Asmodean would never have made the comment about 13 weakest AS - 20/11/2012 09:07:49 AM 1065 Views
Which would make an average AS around a 30 - 20/11/2012 04:58:56 PM 957 Views
Re: Sure you can - 19/11/2012 09:22:09 AM 1200 Views
Care to explain this... - 19/11/2012 05:06:28 PM 1022 Views
Indeed - 20/11/2012 07:16:37 AM 1225 Views
Explained far better than I ever could. Bravo. - 20/11/2012 07:30:29 AM 1079 Views
Well duh. - 20/11/2012 02:57:24 PM 1201 Views
Incorrect. - 20/11/2012 04:28:07 PM 1175 Views
No - 20/11/2012 04:44:16 PM 1165 Views
Re: No - 20/11/2012 04:48:36 PM 1136 Views
That depends... - 20/11/2012 05:18:46 PM 1007 Views
Re: That depends... - 20/11/2012 05:31:03 PM 1557 Views
You're integrating without lower limits... - 20/11/2012 02:55:06 PM 1132 Views
Re: You're integrating without lower limits... - 20/11/2012 04:37:57 PM 1178 Views
It matters. - 20/11/2012 05:22:40 PM 1154 Views
We are not talking about a normal distribution in any case - 20/11/2012 04:44:24 AM 973 Views
Re: We are not talking about a normal distribution in any case - 20/11/2012 07:02:47 AM 1179 Views
You must tell me of this special math... - 20/11/2012 03:10:09 PM 1047 Views
Re: You must tell me of this special math... - 20/11/2012 04:29:40 PM 1105 Views
Morghase is a placeholder... - 20/11/2012 04:45:42 PM 1186 Views
Re: Morghase is a placeholder... - 20/11/2012 04:49:54 PM 1477 Views
Why? - 20/11/2012 05:23:29 PM 1144 Views
Re: Why? - 20/11/2012 05:36:45 PM 1455 Views
Well... - 18/11/2012 08:43:59 PM 1177 Views
Re: Well... - 19/11/2012 03:40:44 PM 1159 Views
Wow. - 19/11/2012 03:53:47 PM 1183 Views
Re: Wow. - 19/11/2012 04:26:09 PM 1209 Views
Some points - 19/11/2012 06:03:00 PM 1252 Views
Well then you're both wrong I'm afraid - 19/11/2012 06:09:36 PM 1096 Views
Re: Well then you're both wrong I'm afraid - 19/11/2012 07:42:58 PM 962 Views
this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power - 20/11/2012 04:51:20 AM 1190 Views
Agreed - 20/11/2012 08:13:37 AM 1224 Views
probably - 20/11/2012 06:18:45 PM 1084 Views
Re: this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power - 20/11/2012 02:45:18 PM 1090 Views
I think RJ went out of his way to keep strength a bit of a mystery - 20/11/2012 08:42:44 PM 1108 Views
Indeed... - 21/11/2012 05:44:18 PM 1077 Views
I agree - 22/11/2012 01:43:02 AM 1326 Views
Math gurus...Is it possible to find the missing variable... - 21/11/2012 05:12:24 PM 1131 Views
the problem is that the Mean is not going to tell us much really - 22/11/2012 02:55:03 AM 1174 Views
Re: the problem is that the Mean is not going to tell us much really - 22/11/2012 03:15:33 AM 1500 Views
I do not think you can calculate the Mean without knowing the Units of Power - 22/11/2012 03:53:59 AM 1253 Views
Re: Math gurus...Is it possible to find the missing variable... - 23/11/2012 02:59:12 PM 1532 Views
Disregard this post *NM* - 23/11/2012 03:02:24 PM 964 Views

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