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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour Sidious Send a noteboard - 15/02/2010 03:31:26 PM

That's a completely unfair assertion. Egwene was offered a life of power, decadence and greatness as an AS. Rand was offered a life where he would kill millions of people, the world would lie upon his shoulders, and he would eventually go insane and kill his loved ones to boot. Hardly a fair comparison. Egwene seems immature because she doesn't seem to realise the price that her actions demand until after she acts. She only seems to be aware of how badly she could mess things up in a very vague way.


You only read it that way because you choose to weep along with Rand about his raw deal in life. In actual fact he is the strongest channeler in the world, with legendary knowledge about the One Power, and a ta'veren of unique power. He can single handedly change the entire world to his own liking and almost nothing could stop him. He is the only one who can destroy all the evil in the world, but ridding it of the Forsaken and sealing away Shai'tan. And what is he crying about? That he wants to herd sheep?

By your methods we could say that Egwene was put into a gilded cage, and has to put up with the black ajah, politics and decorum until the end of her days. The difference is that Egwene used her talents. She's not like Rand who whines about how rotten the world is. Rand is the one who is unhinged in this story, not Egwene.

Actually, in EotW, he is anything but paranoid. However, his situation has forced him to carefully consider who is friend or foe. Even in TGS at his darkest hour he still keeps Nynaeve and Min close, he isn't totally gone. After what he has been through, I'd consider that to be a miraculous level of trust.


So he isn't paranoid in the first book, just the twelve that follow?

Egwene on the other hand openly announces her affiliation and allegiance to the WO and WT, and Rand has seen how these groups force their members to think alike. He clearly holds hope that Egwene still supports him, but he is realistic - he understandably wants her to show him some support before he trusts her fully. That only makes sense.


Considering the two never talk, it's a marvel that you guys know what is going to happen. There's nothing wrong with the fact that Egwene isn't going to hand him the Tower on a silver platter. Even if she wanted to, the Hall would not allow it.

And yet even then, in his darkest hour, he pulls back from truly destructive actions and knows what is right. He is the golden standard because his actions have always been made with the best of intentions, except for the last half of TGS (so 1/24th, or ~4% of the series) where as you said, he wasn't himself anyway. Moiraine, Nynaeve and even Cadsuane have come to respect his decision making, if not his behaviour.


So Rand doesn't kill innocent people with the Power. What is your point?

I think if you put Egwene in Rand's position, the world would have been destroyed by now.


Based on what? Did she destroy anything else she's had power over?

As I said, none of them (with the exception of Perrin, who is probably the character who is LEAST dim-witted after Rand - slow but hardly dim) have actually told him anything contrary to his beliefs. He admitted himself that he agreed with Nynaeve's judgement of his actions, and while I respect her for stating her position, his moral compass has been pretty accurate except when it came to the AS at Dumai's Wells, whom I seem to recall he wanted to execute (Perrin stood against him for this; even that fight, however was partly staged so Rand could send him away without revealing his purpose). I didn't agree with Rand in that one scenario, but after what was done to him by those women, I can certainly empathise with him.


In other words Rand had made tough decisions, and so has Egwene.

Come on, Rand would hardly enslave them, especially after his epiphany in TGS. However, if Egwene holds back the support of the Tower to the one man who can save the entire world, then I'd certainly wonder where her moral compass pointed. She might have good intentions, but she needs to realise that the best way to protect her people is to COOPERATE with the DR, not attack him.


Egwene has never suggested attacking him, and Rand has enslaved Aes Sedai. I don't doubt that they deserve it, but if you're Egwene you may be worried that you're next.

My hope for now is that Rand is wise enough (and I think after TGS he is) to allow Egwene to have a rant against him for an hour or two, then after she has cooled down, just say "yes, I'm sorry" to appease her and get things done. I'm certain that if one of them has to take the moral high ground and take a position of humility in order to diffuse the DR/WT tension, it will be Rand, not Egwene.


They'll have a little banter and Rand will still get what he wants. You people need to relax.
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God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene - 14/02/2010 07:02:20 AM 2708 Views
Just like Elayne treated him so well when she kicked him out of Andor? - 14/02/2010 01:35:32 PM 869 Views
It IS kind of ridiculous... but how do YOU think a meeting will go? - 14/02/2010 07:20:08 PM 958 Views
We all do that - 14/02/2010 08:09:51 PM 1025 Views
You just KNOW that rather than compliment all the good he's done.... - 14/02/2010 03:06:09 PM 819 Views
Personally, I'm rooting for Elaida's Foretelling to be fake - 14/02/2010 06:56:41 PM 1119 Views
I thought she DID say "This I Foretell?" - 14/02/2010 07:24:19 PM 945 Views
Yes she did. - 14/02/2010 07:34:43 PM 1160 Views
Take a sedative - 14/02/2010 07:52:32 PM 998 Views
somethings we can agree on! - 14/02/2010 08:12:05 PM 974 Views
None of the Emond's Fielders suck up to him. There's difference between hostile and 1-upping - 14/02/2010 09:01:35 PM 965 Views
Right cause Nynaeve is always going around telling people how much Mat's changed - 14/02/2010 09:27:02 PM 975 Views
If you'll recall what Mat did 5 minutes after... - 14/02/2010 11:06:41 PM 1002 Views
Not really - 14/02/2010 11:34:49 PM 891 Views
Re: Not really - 15/02/2010 03:32:06 PM 902 Views
better than Nynaeve who just lies to herself in order to justify her actions! - 15/02/2010 05:53:17 PM 1013 Views
This is about Egwene, not Nynaeve. - 15/02/2010 06:09:46 PM 953 Views
actually it's about all of the main characters - 15/02/2010 06:13:27 PM 910 Views
Re: actually it's about all of the main characters - 15/02/2010 06:39:25 PM 1001 Views
Well said. - 15/02/2010 07:20:47 PM 1031 Views
Re: Well said. - 15/02/2010 07:43:08 PM 862 Views
yet even Siuan seems to understand and accept Egwene's response ... odd that you can hold her to - 16/02/2010 01:55:35 AM 798 Views
Oh, so Elaida's treatment of Sheremin is ok because Sheremin accepted it? - 16/02/2010 06:49:53 AM 955 Views
how is that a good comparrison? - 18/02/2010 12:27:58 AM 807 Views
Re: how is that a good comparrison? - 18/02/2010 03:30:21 AM 1289 Views
watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon - 16/02/2010 01:51:09 AM 998 Views
Re: watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon - 16/02/2010 07:04:08 AM 964 Views
Alright enough. Will you read the books already? - 16/02/2010 08:03:39 AM 1027 Views
Fair points, & I somehow forgot that paragraph. - 16/02/2010 05:34:12 PM 941 Views
You've forgotten a lot of paragraphs. - 16/02/2010 07:58:32 PM 1042 Views
The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason - 16/02/2010 01:34:30 AM 804 Views
Re: The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason - 16/02/2010 07:08:13 AM 905 Views
I'm going to agee with fionwe - 16/02/2010 01:07:37 PM 867 Views
Same old same old - 16/02/2010 02:01:12 PM 891 Views
that B*TCH! *NM* - 17/02/2010 03:10:30 AM 657 Views
Re: Same old same old - 17/02/2010 09:32:03 AM 1017 Views
Yes, but Egwene's is pride - - 15/02/2010 07:04:25 PM 909 Views
I think Nyn has had the best character development, bar none - 15/02/2010 08:52:54 PM 898 Views
Re: I think Nyn has had the best character development, bar none - 15/02/2010 10:39:25 PM 922 Views
I feel Galad could be up there, but we see so little of him - 16/02/2010 12:28:44 AM 917 Views
are you being serious? - 16/02/2010 01:57:29 AM 879 Views
Re: are you being serious? - 16/02/2010 06:55:16 AM 983 Views
Oh, I don't think so. - 16/02/2010 09:12:57 AM 863 Views
Re: This is about Egwene, not Nynaeve. - 22/02/2010 10:57:27 PM 960 Views
It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour - 15/02/2010 06:53:30 AM 867 Views
Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour - 15/02/2010 08:41:02 AM 1117 Views
this is hilarious - 15/02/2010 12:45:22 PM 884 Views
Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour - 15/02/2010 03:31:26 PM 995 Views
Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour - 15/02/2010 11:57:24 AM 1152 Views
Who says Egwene didn't have a destiny? *NM* - 15/02/2010 12:46:10 PM 545 Views
Me. And I'm way smarter than you. - 15/02/2010 01:04:48 PM 964 Views
- 15/02/2010 02:12:26 PM 1017 Views
Re: - 15/02/2010 10:40:39 PM 890 Views
Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main - 16/02/2010 01:32:45 AM 850 Views
Re: Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main - 16/02/2010 07:09:52 AM 915 Views
You need a re-read my friend - 16/02/2010 01:14:22 PM 911 Views
Sidious' problem in a nutshell. - 15/02/2010 11:27:12 AM 999 Views
Re: Sidious' problem in a nutshell. - 15/02/2010 03:14:55 PM 956 Views
I've never understood the fascination with Lanfear - 15/02/2010 05:52:27 PM 982 Views
Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene - 14/02/2010 07:56:23 PM 916 Views
Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene - 14/02/2010 08:55:58 PM 864 Views
I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then - 14/02/2010 08:59:26 PM 981 Views
Re: I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then - 14/02/2010 09:24:23 PM 817 Views
I don't think so - 14/02/2010 09:30:41 PM 848 Views
Re: I don't think so - 15/02/2010 03:45:52 PM 945 Views
That's pretty much how I see it too - 15/02/2010 05:54:14 PM 869 Views
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand - 14/02/2010 08:05:40 PM 1087 Views
Re: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand - 14/02/2010 11:55:40 PM 987 Views
Cadsuane needs to spank her. - 15/02/2010 01:31:49 AM 961 Views
yeah, that's worked so well on her in the past - 15/02/2010 01:48:05 AM 890 Views
It would be a very amusing moment. - 15/02/2010 03:01:37 AM 842 Views
IMO it would merely be a hypocritical moment of massive proportions - 15/02/2010 04:45:27 AM 843 Views
and a massive failure - 15/02/2010 06:57:18 AM 987 Views
What Egwene needs is to be shown that her actions could harm the tower. - 15/02/2010 08:46:30 AM 770 Views
Actually that role is being played by Covril at the Stump *NM* - 15/02/2010 02:13:42 PM 598 Views
If you hate arrogance, you must hate all the main characters in the series - 15/02/2010 03:21:48 PM 811 Views
But that's the point - 15/02/2010 03:26:03 PM 886 Views
Not quite. - 15/02/2010 07:11:56 PM 894 Views
Actually, you can't compare the two. - 15/02/2010 12:04:19 PM 970 Views
No, Cannoli has the right of it here. - 16/02/2010 06:22:39 PM 985 Views
Re: No, Cannoli has the right of it here. - 16/02/2010 06:51:28 PM 981 Views
I actually think it will go the opposite way. - 16/02/2010 03:44:19 PM 922 Views

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