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GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby Send a noteboard - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM
Let me get this straight, sending the ships up to Hardholme (which was stupid). I get Jon's he's reasoning. Save lives. Less enemy later on. But come on... sending ships filled with Brothers, already depleted in number following the Fist of the First Men massacre, into a stormy autumn sea that has already sunk several ships to save wildings in a haunted town. It was stupid and destined for disaster. And it did, but I digress...

Then, with those Brothers now placed in peril, you basically say "PEACE OUT, GOING TO SAVE MY OLD HOME AND MY SISTER IN WINTERFELL" on the eve of going to rescue them. That's a clear breaking of his vow. The Lord Commander basically saying you are on your own as things go to shit? Dishonoring of the vows that he has fought for over FIVE BOOKS?

Am I really suppose to believe that? That was completely, utterly out of character for Jon. I just don't see why out of all the crap the world has piled on Jon to break his vows and abandon his post - he chose THAT one. Because Ramsay threatened his sister? Who he clearly admitted he didn't have? Without any confirmation that anything he wrote was true? When you've known about her marriage for weeks and upheld your vow. Really?

Hell, I would have stabbed him myself if I was there. Yes, I'm aware of the prophecy and Jon is likely to be resurrected. Doesn't change the fact that GRRM essentially character assassinated Jon's development.

Aware of what happened to Eddard Stark and Robb, given numerous warnings by Mel, having no body-guard around him due to not wanting to be seen as weak, not consolidating his power when his grip on the Nights Watch is still tenuous. In total, a convenient lack of any sort of political acumen so that Martin can advance his myth-arc further. Martin appears to have a sincere belief that a good person cannot be a good leader, and is bound by justice, duty, honor, mercy, what-have-you to do very, very stupid things. This seems to go double for the Starks. This is one of my major problems with this book. Characters are making mistakes that they should've learned from four books ago.

I really despised the parallels being drawn between Jon/Ghost and Robb/Grey Wind towards the end of his arc, REALLY fucking despised it. I thought he would have AT LEAST would have been smart enough to keep Ghost near him, especially considering how much the two had gone through and how close their bond was. You could never really be too sure about Robb and Grey Wind, even though from what you know Grey Wind was extremely obedient and loyal, but I can't help but think Jon should have known better.
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6568 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2124 Views
I have it! *NM* - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1154 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2323 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2302 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1986 Views
It'll be tight. - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2325 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2111 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1050 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2149 Views
Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2435 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2224 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2104 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2102 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2144 Views
That's what I thought too. - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2126 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1229 Views
Asshole of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2317 Views
Agreed. - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2264 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2102 Views
Seriously... - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2083 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 2023 Views
Idiot of the book. - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2344 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1158 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2216 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2095 Views
She thinks both - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 2040 Views
So... - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2067 Views
No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 2073 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1233 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1195 Views
Great Ending - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2332 Views
Really? - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2270 Views
Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1906 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2065 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1906 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2074 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 2049 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2273 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2253 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2096 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2164 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 2000 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2143 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2197 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2093 Views
Didn't Jon just announced - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2057 Views
Something I totally missed first time through - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2472 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2381 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2195 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 2030 Views
Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1957 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2178 Views
Agreed - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2198 Views
There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 2002 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 2042 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2078 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1137 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 2249 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2189 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2131 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 2035 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2267 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 2040 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2273 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2100 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 2025 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 2058 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2170 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2158 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2049 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2091 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2095 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2094 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2124 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2231 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1997 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 2009 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1128 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2143 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2313 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2461 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2247 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1116 Views
Davos is probably my favourite - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1895 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2104 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2049 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2084 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 2032 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2106 Views
That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 1026 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2046 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2115 Views
I highly doubt he's dead - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2098 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2153 Views
Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 2026 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2121 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2219 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2041 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2093 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 2000 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1120 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 2044 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 2011 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2065 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1953 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2125 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 2001 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 2003 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 2017 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1989 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2110 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 2023 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 2042 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2085 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1966 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1890 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 2014 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1985 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 2055 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1971 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1994 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1851 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1920 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 2041 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 2004 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2085 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1164 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1883 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1226 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2182 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2140 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2095 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2058 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2128 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1978 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1904 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2112 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2145 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2109 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1989 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2122 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2330 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 2002 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2071 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1951 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 2031 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 2023 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 2037 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1898 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1108 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1931 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2333 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2117 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2055 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2041 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2256 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2170 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2240 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1981 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1972 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2571 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2464 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2039 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1904 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2050 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 2026 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2307 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2165 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2128 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2193 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2107 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2156 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2224 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2058 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1976 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2032 Views

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