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Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc Send a noteboard - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM


On a related note, I really like the new character Penny. No major player of course, but really lovable, naive and sweet. I hope she sticks around for a bit and Tyrion can watch out for her. If there is one thing I dislike about the series it is how easily interesting minor characters disappear (Bronn, for example).



Tyrion is depressed and suicidal for most of this book, but her innocence serves as a counterpoint to that downward spiral (like a conscience, as you say). My guess is that she will either die or be seriously injured, which will propel Tyrion's character arc. She isn't that well-developed as a character in my opinion, so I think that is her fate, to serve the development of Tyrion's character. I am totally open to hearing arguments to the contrary though.

The truth is, Penny running into Tyrion is so utterly contrived. Westeros and Essos are giant places. The odds of her running into Tyrion are so low that it is rather unbelievable that she happens to end up exactly where he is. Literally she ends up a few dining tables away from him as opposed to any other place in the entire world. It was already coincidental enough when Jorah just happens to be at the same place that Tyrion is. But now the jousting dwarf as well? Will they run into Tysha next?

Personally I love how it points out Tyrion's hypocrisy when it comes to the sexual attraction thing. For all Tyrions moaning about never being desired by beautiful women because he is a dwarf, he sure does not seem too eager to jump in the sack with Penny, his fellow dwarf, for exactly the same reason. You know if she had been a tall blonde Lyseni he would have been all over her in a minute, no matter how childish and innocent she was.


I think you got that wrong. Tyrion respects more than just ugly women's innocence. Sansa was a beautiful maiden and rather innocent and he didn't take advantage of her even though he was ordered too. He prefers someone who actually likes him for himself(Tysha) or someone who can at least be somewhat convincing like a "whore". Though whores probably won't do it for him now and he did his best too not pull away mortified that a ugly dwarf woman was kissing him. He is not a Hypocrite in his actions at all. He has more honor than any Lannister now that his uncle Kevan is dead.
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread Legolas - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6627 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. ironclad - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2177 Views
I have it! *NM* fionwe1987 - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1179 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2372 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* ironclad - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2332 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. Tom - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 2036 Views
It'll be tight. Werthead - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2368 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised! Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM 2246 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2146 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1069 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding Roland00 - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2191 Views
Hero of the book? Werthead - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2475 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2268 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2147 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ClubCaved - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2145 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2209 Views
That's what I thought too. Jessie - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2174 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* Urza - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1252 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM 1251 Views
Asshole of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2366 Views
Agreed. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2310 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM* RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM 1113 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2152 Views
Seriously... Urza - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2128 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 2066 Views
Idiot of the book. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2392 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1173 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2256 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking. Libby - 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM 2538 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2143 Views
She thinks both Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 2076 Views
So... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2112 Views
No, it's him. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 2128 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* Dark Knight - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1253 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1213 Views
Great Ending ClubCaved - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2373 Views
Really? ironclad - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2317 Views
Re: Really? Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1952 Views
Re: Great Ending samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2120 Views
YES! Larry - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1938 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Stephen - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2111 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 2091 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) aragornital - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2322 Views
Probably not. Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2285 Views
Re: Probably not. aragornital - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2142 Views
I think the two are mixed up. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2212 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 2045 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... ironclad - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2181 Views
They didn't. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2236 Views
I see ironclad - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2138 Views
Didn't Jon just announced Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2090 Views
Something I totally missed first time through Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2512 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Cannoli - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2421 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought A Deathwatch Guard - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2249 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Jessie - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 2071 Views
Well that brings new meaning Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 2015 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2233 Views
Agreed ironclad - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2249 Views
There's another... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 2045 Views
There's that... Legolas - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 2078 Views
It's worse than that... fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2121 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1159 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 2301 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2225 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Zaphod - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2167 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. Libby - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 2232 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 2215 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 2080 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2325 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 2102 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. Tom - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2325 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. everynametaken - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2157 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. Tom - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 2053 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. Zach - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 2098 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. heartbreak - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2227 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2208 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2100 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM 2288 Views
Yeah, I agree. Stephen - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2134 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2136 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM 2153 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2147 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. Libby - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2187 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts Larry - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2297 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! ironclad - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 2055 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 2047 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1142 Views
I think you let him off too easily. Tom - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2200 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened Larry - 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM 2147 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) Libby - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2373 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... Zach - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2503 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... ironclad - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2295 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1138 Views
Davos is probably my favourite Stephen - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1933 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Variant - 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM 2262 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM 2091 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet Stephen - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2139 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. Legolas - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2089 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague Urza - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2114 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... Legolas - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 2087 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? ironclad - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2149 Views
That could be it. *NM* Stephen - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 1049 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones DomA - 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM 2166 Views
That's how I read it as well. Six trebuchets opening up. *NM* Michael - 11/08/2011 12:19:09 PM 1105 Views
Stannis ironclad - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2091 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed Tom - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2161 Views
I highly doubt he's dead A Deathwatch Guard - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2143 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2190 Views
Yeah... Urza - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 2073 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 2226 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Libby - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2171 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Werthead - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2252 Views
Alternatively.. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2088 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? Tom - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2145 Views
None of them. Werthead - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 2045 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* Tom - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1138 Views
Opinion Werthead - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 2086 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant. Tom - 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM 1949 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 2060 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? Tom - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2108 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 2000 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2175 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 2057 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. Tom - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 2049 Views
Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 2059 Views
Of course it does Tom - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 2035 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2159 Views
Perhaps... A Deathwatch Guard - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 2066 Views
Its simple... Urza - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 2080 Views
I disagree... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2120 Views
Bullshit. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 2005 Views
Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1927 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though. Werthead - 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM 1946 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them A Deathwatch Guard - 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM 2097 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world. Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM 2123 Views
Some thoughts... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 2086 Views
It's not an objective morality. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 2040 Views
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 2096 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 2009 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 2031 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1893 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1961 Views
Whats the best new POV Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 2095 Views
Barristan Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 2046 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2143 Views
Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1184 Views
thirded. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1939 Views
Absolutely *NM* ironclad - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1250 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2225 Views
A bit. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2186 Views
Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2143 Views
Re: Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2118 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything Roland00 - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2162 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything DomA - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 2015 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face Roland00 - 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM 2170 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1936 Views
Re: DomA - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2166 Views
I like your theory. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2192 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2154 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Roland00 - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 2024 Views
Eh? Elaine - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2169 Views
This is complicated. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2385 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? Tom - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 2056 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people Roland00 - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2149 Views
Yup. Werthead - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1997 Views
Also... fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 2072 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out Elaine - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 2076 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... aragornital - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 2073 Views
Allow me Elaine - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1961 Views
thanks *NM* aragornital - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1127 Views
I thought this was pretty clear HousealThor - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1982 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2372 Views
Interesting idea. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2165 Views
Re: Interesting idea. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2094 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2088 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2295 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? DomA - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2241 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread jwk - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2276 Views
Okay. I suck. jwk - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 2034 Views
Let me rephrase that... jwk - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 2014 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. Kotagg - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2617 Views
Hmm ironclad - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2507 Views
you are correct Jim - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2093 Views
Yup. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1952 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... fionwe1987 - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2086 Views
I'm uncertain about that Larry - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 2073 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Werthead - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2352 Views
Where did he say that? fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2211 Views
In interviews Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2170 Views
A little thought about Jon... aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2229 Views
Excellent point. Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2165 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... The Doctor - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2192 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that ironclad - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2266 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed. Libby - 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM 2052 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? Chas - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2098 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? Werthead - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 2019 Views
Jon? Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2075 Views
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