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It's not an objective morality. Tom Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM
The point is that, when everything is completely subjective, any morality works just fine. Yes, I know that people get killed because of religion. Right now a lot of Muslims seem to be into the idea of blowing themselves and others up for their religion. However, the simple fact is that the vast majority of Muslims believe this is wrong, just as the vast majority of Christians, etc.

On the other hand, atheist systems have killed millions and millions of people. Stalin killed at least 20 million, Mao probably killed 60 million, and Pol Pot only killed about 2 million but it was 25% of his country's population. This was a subjective morality.

As many have noted, belief in "progress" or "secularism" has not improved the way that people treat each other. The absolute subjectivity of morality plays a part in this. I realize that, if there actually ISN'T a God, then the morality imposed by religion is also subjective. However, if there IS a God, then it is objective, not subjective. And THAT is the point of what I've been asking.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread Legolas - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6452 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. ironclad - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2005 Views
I have it! *NM* fionwe1987 - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1092 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2208 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* ironclad - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2181 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. Tom - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1864 Views
It'll be tight. Werthead - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2172 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised! Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM 2073 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 1997 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 976 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding Roland00 - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2020 Views
Hero of the book? Werthead - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2318 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2133 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 1999 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ClubCaved - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 1983 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2019 Views
That's what I thought too. Jessie - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2018 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* Urza - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1157 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM 1141 Views
Asshole of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2194 Views
Agreed. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2129 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM* RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM 1032 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 1970 Views
Seriously... Urza - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 1967 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1915 Views
Idiot of the book. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2224 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1092 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2080 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking. Libby - 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM 2392 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 1995 Views
She thinks both Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1926 Views
So... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 1948 Views
No, it's him. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1936 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* Dark Knight - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1169 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1122 Views
Great Ending ClubCaved - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2226 Views
Really? ironclad - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2160 Views
Re: Really? Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1802 Views
Re: Great Ending samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 1954 Views
YES! Larry - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1794 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Stephen - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 1946 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1925 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) aragornital - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2147 Views
Probably not. Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2134 Views
Re: Probably not. aragornital - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 1969 Views
I think the two are mixed up. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2049 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1890 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... ironclad - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2030 Views
They didn't. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2061 Views
I see ironclad - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 1982 Views
Didn't Jon just announced Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 1939 Views
Something I totally missed first time through Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2342 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Cannoli - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2258 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought A Deathwatch Guard - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2073 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Jessie - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1924 Views
Well that brings new meaning Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1842 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2060 Views
Agreed ironclad - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2081 Views
There's another... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1892 Views
There's that... Legolas - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1945 Views
It's worse than that... fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 1967 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1071 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 2112 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2068 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Zaphod - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2013 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. Libby - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 2059 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 2043 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1920 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2138 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1906 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. Tom - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2123 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. everynametaken - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 1975 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. Tom - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1926 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. Zach - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1933 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. heartbreak - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2028 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2061 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 1949 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM 2105 Views
Yeah, I agree. Stephen - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 1997 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 1971 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM 2005 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 1981 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. Libby - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2020 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts Larry - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2131 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! ironclad - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1889 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1891 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1056 Views
I think you let him off too easily. Tom - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2024 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened Larry - 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM 1982 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) Libby - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2192 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... Zach - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2312 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... ironclad - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2133 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1049 Views
Davos is probably my favourite Stephen - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1791 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Variant - 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM 2105 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM 1936 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet Stephen - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 1983 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. Legolas - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 1907 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague Urza - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 1962 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... Legolas - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1914 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? ironclad - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 1973 Views
That could be it. *NM* Stephen - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 967 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones DomA - 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM 2030 Views
That's how I read it as well. Six trebuchets opening up. *NM* Michael - 11/08/2011 12:19:09 PM 1043 Views
Stannis ironclad - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 1933 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed Tom - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2010 Views
I highly doubt he's dead A Deathwatch Guard - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 1967 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2030 Views
Yeah... Urza - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1930 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 2075 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Libby - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2007 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Werthead - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2102 Views
Alternatively.. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1944 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? Tom - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1988 Views
None of them. Werthead - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1882 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* Tom - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1058 Views
Opinion Werthead - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1924 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant. Tom - 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM 1788 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1919 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? Tom - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 1947 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1833 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2002 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1886 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. Tom - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1898 Views
Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1898 Views
Of course it does Tom - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1874 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 1974 Views
Perhaps... A Deathwatch Guard - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1919 Views
Its simple... Urza - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1923 Views
I disagree... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 1982 Views
Bullshit. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1860 Views
Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1768 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though. Werthead - 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM 1813 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them A Deathwatch Guard - 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM 1931 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world. Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM 1952 Views
Some thoughts... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1879 Views
It's not an objective morality. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1874 Views
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1930 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1859 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1880 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1744 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1804 Views
Whats the best new POV Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1926 Views
Barristan Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1890 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 1968 Views
Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1092 Views
thirded. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1766 Views
Absolutely *NM* ironclad - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1179 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2071 Views
A bit. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2039 Views
Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 1983 Views
Re: Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1919 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything Roland00 - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2004 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything DomA - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1877 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face Roland00 - 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM 2021 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1801 Views
Re: DomA - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 1987 Views
I like your theory. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2001 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 1999 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Roland00 - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1890 Views
Eh? Elaine - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2002 Views
This is complicated. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2206 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? Tom - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1901 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people Roland00 - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 1949 Views
Yup. Werthead - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1840 Views
Also... fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1944 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out Elaine - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1914 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... aragornital - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1936 Views
Allow me Elaine - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1789 Views
thanks *NM* aragornital - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1043 Views
I thought this was pretty clear HousealThor - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1818 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2212 Views
Interesting idea. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2017 Views
Re: Interesting idea. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 1940 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1929 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2136 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? DomA - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2038 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread jwk - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2122 Views
Okay. I suck. jwk - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1860 Views
Let me rephrase that... jwk - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1836 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. Kotagg - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2443 Views
Hmm ironclad - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2365 Views
you are correct Jim - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1937 Views
Yup. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1755 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... fionwe1987 - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 1949 Views
I'm uncertain about that Larry - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1919 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Werthead - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2184 Views
Where did he say that? fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2064 Views
In interviews Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2016 Views
A little thought about Jon... aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2082 Views
Excellent point. Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2003 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... The Doctor - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2032 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that ironclad - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2090 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed. Libby - 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM 1886 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? Chas - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 1940 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? Werthead - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1872 Views
Jon? Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1912 Views
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