Active Users:1772 Time:01/05/2026 09:04:11 AM
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM
The point is that, when everything is completely subjective, any morality works just fine. Yes, I know that people get killed because of religion. Right now a lot of Muslims seem to be into the idea of blowing themselves and others up for their religion. However, the simple fact is that the vast majority of Muslims believe this is wrong, just as the vast majority of Christians, etc.

Yes, any morality can work just fine, so long as society thinks it is okay. Take the case of terrorists who blow themselves up. You're right, a vast majority of Muslims think this is wrong. But does the strength of that moral lie in the fact that it stems from the Quran, or because a vast majority think it is wrong? How many of those Muslims who completely reject terrorism are devout followers who accept every word of the Quran and live by it? How many say so out of simple, and completely acceptable, self interest, seeing that being tarnished as the religion of terrorism has done Islam and its followers no favors, politically or economically? How many who support terrorism attribute God and his word as their inspiration, and how many who repudiate it draw inspiration from reason, logic and humanism?

On the other hand, atheist systems have killed millions and millions of people. Stalin killed at least 20 million, Mao probably killed 60 million, and Pol Pot only killed about 2 million but it was 25% of his country's population. This was a subjective morality.

But the question is, would religious belief have changed this? It is not like militant atheism drove these people to commit their atrocities. I'm unsure if any causal relationship can be established between the atheism of these systems and the extent of their crimes against humanity.

On the flip side, religion certainly doesn't seem to stop crime. Look at Imperialism. The absolute number of deaths may not match those you listed above, at least not at any one single point, but the cost in terms of economic hardship, cultural and political oppression is still very great. And a lot of it was done in the name of spreading religion and the associated "superior" culture, or at least couched in these terms.

Look too at the Partition of India, with the millions displaced, and about a million dead. The legacy of that still continues.

As many have noted, belief in "progress" or "secularism" has not improved the way that people treat each other.

People may note all they want, but actual research suggests otherwise. There is a direct correlation between crime rates, tolerance, etc. and secularism.

The absolute subjectivity of morality plays a part in this. I realize that, if there actually ISN'T a God, then the morality imposed by religion is also subjective. However, if there IS a God, then it is objective, not subjective. And THAT is the point of what I've been asking.

That doesn't make much sense, though. If, tomorrow, it is proved that, for the sake of this discussion, Allah is real, and he does condone terrorism, does this suddenly make terrorism moral? Should India, Israel, the US and Europe accept that Jihad against "infidels" is alright? Or if the Christian God is real, and he does disapprove of homosexuality, should all the gains in gay rights be reversed? Or if he doesn't mind, will those who worked against gay rights, sometimes violently, out of a genuine belief that they were doing God's work, be consigned to Hell?

A possible future proof of God cannot in any way alter current morality, because at the moment, everyone is working on the basis of faith or the lack of it. Just like a future change in law cannot determine the legality of my current actions.
Reply to message
A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6694 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2238 Views
I have it! *NM* - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1213 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2436 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2397 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 2110 Views
It'll be tight. - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2439 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2212 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1094 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2249 Views
Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2539 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2320 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2220 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2219 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2269 Views
That's what I thought too. - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2237 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1280 Views
Asshole of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2421 Views
Agreed. - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2365 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2224 Views
Seriously... - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2192 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 2138 Views
Idiot of the book. - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2454 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1213 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2321 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2200 Views
She thinks both - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 2137 Views
So... - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2190 Views
No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 2217 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1291 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1250 Views
Great Ending - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2433 Views
Really? - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2385 Views
Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 2021 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2179 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1999 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2170 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 2147 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2386 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2344 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2196 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2267 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 2104 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2259 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2303 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2219 Views
Didn't Jon just announced - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2144 Views
Something I totally missed first time through - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2576 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2473 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2316 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 2122 Views
Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 2071 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2302 Views
Agreed - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2301 Views
There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 2107 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 2155 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2201 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1184 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2294 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2223 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 2162 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2395 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 2158 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2383 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2268 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 2117 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 2165 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2354 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2267 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2168 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2211 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2203 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2211 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2296 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2367 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 2143 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 2128 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1174 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2253 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2440 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2566 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2351 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1168 Views
Davos is probably my favourite - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 2017 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2201 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2159 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2178 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 2147 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2217 Views
That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 1081 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2150 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2212 Views
I highly doubt he's dead - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2200 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2248 Views
Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 2125 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2270 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2322 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2146 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2203 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 2104 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1171 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 2145 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 2126 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2161 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 2060 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2230 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 2120 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 2112 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 2116 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 2095 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2227 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 2131 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 2136 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2193 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 2071 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1988 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 2142 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 2090 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 2166 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 2068 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 2092 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1962 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 2027 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 2162 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 2109 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2217 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1215 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1998 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1287 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2307 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2242 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2192 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2184 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2226 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 2090 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 2015 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2232 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2250 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2221 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 2086 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2223 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2448 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 2114 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2211 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 2057 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 2125 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 2147 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 2156 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 2025 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1156 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 2038 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2444 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2221 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2162 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2155 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2359 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2300 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2341 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 2095 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 2084 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2674 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2569 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2161 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 2020 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2148 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 2135 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2409 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2282 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2230 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2299 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2229 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2258 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2332 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2167 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 2088 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2133 Views

Reply to Message