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Re: DomA Send a noteboard - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM
He has to be coming back as Azhor Azhai reborn. However, I think Azhai and the Prince Who Was Promised are not the same thing; Dany is the latter and Jon the former (and they may well be two sides of the same coin, a sort of messiah/anti-messiah thing). Azhai appears to be a much darker-aspected figure. I think Jon will then forge his own version of Lightbringer by sacrificing the thing he loves the most (probably Ghost).


If Jon isn't AA, Martin really went out of his way to make it appear so, and really not far from where Melisandre could catch up on all the signs (bleeding star etc.) and be the instrument to bring back Jon from death/the brink of death - which could be what's it's about. And he has a sword to turn into a new Lightbringer, at Melisandre's guidance, and that she was right should finish to convince him he must listen to her. It doesn't mean Melisandre's right about AA and a rebirth in the first place, though.

Not sure about Jon/Dany being the two sides of the same coin analogy. Too many signs have pointed to a triad, and in the new book Martin is having even more fun than in AFFC about the "third dragon" (first with the Quentyn red-herring, then with the new Targaryen prince "ressurecting" from the dead).

It could be said and has been said that Dany has been reborn in the fire as the Mother of Dragons under the bleeding star.

Young Griff was dead to all and now "reborn" under his true identity, also heralded by the comet.

And now there's Jon and the signs for Melisandre to read.

So the prophecy(ies) as such may have been fulfilled for all three of them. Aemon's mumblings in AFFC suggest the signs are valid for all three (if Griff really is the third).

I think Melisandre's version that the PWWP is Azor Azhai reborn with Lightbringer might be corrupted/mythical or partial only. She (and apparently the other priests of R'hllor) doesn't know the dragon has not one but three heads.
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread Legolas - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6532 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. ironclad - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2091 Views
I have it! *NM* fionwe1987 - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1129 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2288 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* ironclad - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2264 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. Tom - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1950 Views
It'll be tight. Werthead - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2269 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised! Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM 2148 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2070 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1031 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding Roland00 - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2106 Views
Hero of the book? Werthead - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2398 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2184 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2065 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ClubCaved - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2064 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2092 Views
That's what I thought too. Jessie - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2092 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* Urza - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1204 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM 1182 Views
Asshole of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2276 Views
Agreed. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2213 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM* RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM 1076 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2052 Views
Seriously... Urza - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2050 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1989 Views
Idiot of the book. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2300 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1134 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2173 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking. Libby - 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM 2464 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2059 Views
She thinks both Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1999 Views
So... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2022 Views
No, it's him. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 2018 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* Dark Knight - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1210 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1175 Views
Great Ending ClubCaved - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2296 Views
Really? ironclad - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2230 Views
Re: Really? Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1875 Views
Re: Great Ending samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2024 Views
YES! Larry - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1860 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Stephen - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2036 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 2008 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) aragornital - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2233 Views
Probably not. Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2209 Views
Re: Probably not. aragornital - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2057 Views
I think the two are mixed up. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2123 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1969 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... ironclad - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2108 Views
They didn't. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2142 Views
I see ironclad - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2054 Views
Didn't Jon just announced Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2025 Views
Something I totally missed first time through Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2419 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Cannoli - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2338 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought A Deathwatch Guard - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2159 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Jessie - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1986 Views
Well that brings new meaning Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1917 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2140 Views
Agreed ironclad - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2155 Views
There's another... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1962 Views
There's that... Legolas - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 2011 Views
It's worse than that... fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2037 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1114 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 2201 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2157 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Zaphod - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2101 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. Libby - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 2150 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 2138 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 2001 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2218 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1984 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. Tom - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2217 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. everynametaken - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2041 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. Tom - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1991 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. Zach - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 2010 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. heartbreak - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2128 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2137 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2015 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM 2192 Views
Yeah, I agree. Stephen - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2062 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2049 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM 2074 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2049 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. Libby - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2089 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts Larry - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2199 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! ironclad - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1958 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1976 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1101 Views
I think you let him off too easily. Tom - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2101 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened Larry - 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM 2064 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) Libby - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2273 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... Zach - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2397 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... ironclad - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2218 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1095 Views
Davos is probably my favourite Stephen - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1854 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Variant - 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM 2178 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM 2018 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet Stephen - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2062 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. Legolas - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2012 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague Urza - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2048 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... Legolas - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1987 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? ironclad - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2065 Views
That could be it. *NM* Stephen - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 1002 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones DomA - 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM 2091 Views
That's how I read it as well. Six trebuchets opening up. *NM* Michael - 11/08/2011 12:19:09 PM 1074 Views
Stannis ironclad - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2010 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed Tom - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2090 Views
I highly doubt he's dead A Deathwatch Guard - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2069 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2119 Views
Yeah... Urza - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1995 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 2161 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Libby - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2086 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Werthead - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2181 Views
Alternatively.. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2013 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? Tom - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2065 Views
None of them. Werthead - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1961 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* Tom - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1099 Views
Opinion Werthead - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 2007 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant. Tom - 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM 1869 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1981 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? Tom - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2025 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1913 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2079 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1965 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. Tom - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1970 Views
Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1980 Views
Of course it does Tom - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1956 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2063 Views
Perhaps... A Deathwatch Guard - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1990 Views
Its simple... Urza - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 2004 Views
I disagree... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2046 Views
Bullshit. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1938 Views
Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1851 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though. Werthead - 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM 1887 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them A Deathwatch Guard - 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM 2009 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world. Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM 2023 Views
Some thoughts... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1960 Views
It's not an objective morality. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1948 Views
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 2020 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1941 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1955 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1819 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1882 Views
Whats the best new POV Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 2002 Views
Barristan Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1973 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2041 Views
Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1135 Views
thirded. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1845 Views
Absolutely *NM* ironclad - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1214 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2148 Views
A bit. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2109 Views
Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2062 Views
Re: Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2007 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything Roland00 - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2084 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything DomA - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1942 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face Roland00 - 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM 2088 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1863 Views
Re: DomA - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2068 Views
I like your theory. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2099 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2071 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Roland00 - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1956 Views
Eh? Elaine - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2079 Views
This is complicated. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2292 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? Tom - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1969 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people Roland00 - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2032 Views
Yup. Werthead - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1914 Views
Also... fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1999 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out Elaine - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1989 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... aragornital - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1999 Views
Allow me Elaine - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1860 Views
thanks *NM* aragornital - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1089 Views
I thought this was pretty clear HousealThor - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1895 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2284 Views
Interesting idea. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2084 Views
Re: Interesting idea. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2010 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2001 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2213 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? DomA - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2132 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread jwk - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2201 Views
Okay. I suck. jwk - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1940 Views
Let me rephrase that... jwk - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1920 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. Kotagg - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2527 Views
Hmm ironclad - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2433 Views
you are correct Jim - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2008 Views
Yup. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1846 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... fionwe1987 - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2019 Views
I'm uncertain about that Larry - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1987 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Werthead - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2263 Views
Where did he say that? fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2133 Views
In interviews Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2096 Views
A little thought about Jon... aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2153 Views
Excellent point. Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2073 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... The Doctor - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2106 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that ironclad - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2180 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed. Libby - 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM 1962 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? Chas - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2021 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? Werthead - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1947 Views
Jon? Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2001 Views
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