I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half...
Larry Send a noteboard - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM

In Support of Other Fiction
I’ve made a great number of statements at this website (if written threads can be properly termed “statements”) which convey my displeasure with the obsession that many visiting RAFO seem to have with science fiction and fantasy. It would be hypocritical to pretend that I do not enjoy the occasional science fiction or fantasy book – indeed, if that were the case, how did I end up here in the first place?
My position is not that science fiction and fantasy are not worth reading. I read just this year, with much pleasure, The Gathering Storm, the Mistborn trilogy and Warbreaker. I have read Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Lloyd Alexander, H.P. Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, Orson Scott Card, Douglas Adams, J.K. Rowling and other writers of fantasy and science fiction and will continue to do so.
It's strange that your examples of spec fic that you read/liked this year were almost all "popcorn" level reads (not talking about the others you mention later)...
However, I will repeat a statement that I’ve made several times in the past: Reading science fiction and fantasy is sort of like eating fast food. There’s nothing wrong with it in moderation, but when it dominates what you read, you sit back after the fact, disgusted with yourself and say, “What have I done?”
I'd qualify that argument quite a bit, since there's much more variety and aims within that overly-large spec fic umbrella than what you seem to be giving credence to here. But beyond that, I think there's a larger issue that hasn't been addressed in your post or in any of the responses to date, that of material culture. I think there's something very useful for the cultural historian or cultural anthropologist (and I suppose those lit majors

Readers can find things worthy of engagement in quite a few narrative forms. Like you, I enjoy quite a bit of Nabokov's writing. But I also find similar challenges and similar levels of thematic depth in say M. John Harrison's work (and he writes both mimetic and speculative fiction). Same would hold true if I were reading Paul Auster (whose works I've enjoyed) or Brian Evenson. Or perhaps for A.S. Byatt and J.G. Ballard. So much depends on what the reader is willing to wrest from the text, I believe.
The reason is that most speculative fiction (and I’ll use that term since it is a more broad and inclusive one than “fantasy and science fiction”) is essentially a diversion, to literature what a Hollywood blockbuster is to cinema. To call it “escapism” risks raising a whole host of moot issues and ignores the fact that many people need such an escape for psychological and/or emotional reasons. However, a diversion of any sort does exactly what its title proclaims – it diverts people from their problems.
While this is mostly true, there's quite a bit of fiction that utilize speculative narrative modes to do much more than escapism/diversion. I'd argue that much of Jeff VanderMeer's works operates on more levels than just that. Quite a bit of thematic exploration about the human condition taking place in his Ambergris novels.
Diversion can be helpful, at times necessary. The problem arises when the diversion is constant and unrelenting. Diversions cannot help people solve underlying problems in their lives. A person engaging in diversion is not addressing the fundamental questions of existence in a meaningful way. There is no head-on confrontation with mortality, the double-edged sword of love, politics, religion or musings on other metaphysical questions. Diversion smacks of a furtive, secret love affair that a spouse engages in to avoid dealing with the spousal relationship on its own terms.
Speculative fiction can, in some cases, be more than diversion. The dystopian novel is a prime example of this, where the speculative world serves as a warning for present society to correct perceived mistakes in ideological, economic or sociopolitical trends.
In many cases, yes. Italo Calvino certainly used several speculative tropes in his writings, especially in Invisible Cities. Surely that is a prime example of a speculative, surreal narrative that tries to engage the reader more than divert him/her?
Tolkien is also good example of speculative fiction that comes close to realistic fiction in its themes and motifs. When the main story of The Lord of the Rings is set aside, much of what remains is a corpus of stories and fragments of stories dealing with love, loss, failure and tragedy, with hubris and resentment and the scent of real life. His Lay of Leithian emulates the best traditions of classic epic poetry. Even so, however, his works still fall somewhat short of the mark. Talking about, for example, the “hubris of Boromir” as a parallel to the hubris of Achilles in the Iliad just doesn’t work. The suicide of Dido from the Aeneid has no parallel in Tolkien. However, Tolkien resembles traditional literature in that he addresses the human condition with all of its neuroses and insecurities.
Oddly, I don't think as highly of Tolkien's prose and thematic elements as you do here. I grant that he does display some talent despite his desire to create an immersive imagined world, but at times this "world building" tended to get in the way of the themes he apparently wanted to explore in his writing. Have you read Ngugi wa Thion'go's Wizard of the Crow? I think that would serve as a better example here.
Traditional literature is, first and foremost, about what it means to be human. Fundamental questions about morality, existence, and our lives are raised, and in some cases solutions are proposed to the reader for approval or rejection. Ennui, nostalgia and loss are present. Good doesn’t always win, and characters with deep and well-developed personalities suffer. Fanciful Deus ex machina solutions aren’t available, or at least aren’t usually available. The anticipation of loss is real, and that loss usually then occurs as anticipated. It is because traditional literature addresses these points that it has meaning. We recognise it as real because we feel those things in our lives.
To a degree, yes, I would agree with this, but only to a degree. What about the speculative elements that Flannery O'Connor and (to a much lesser degree) William Faulkner used to accentuate those fundamental questions that you mentioned above? Wouldn't it be better to argue that speculative elements, when married to a more "psychological" approach to exploring Theme and Character, might touch upon the human interests in Play and Hope? Chris Adrian's The Children's Hospital I believe is a strong novel in large part because of these combination of disparate elements to create a sweeping novel that explores so many facets of human identity.
There’s nothing wrong with reading a thriller, or a murder mystery, or a science fiction book. Some even may pleasantly surprise the reader by having some deeper meaning. But we can’t just watch Meet the Parents or Die Hard XXV. Sometimes we need to watch Schindler’s List or Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Diversions are useful, but not at the expense of growing intellectually, emotionally or psychologically.
I realise that I am inviting responses that state that Robert Jordan or George Martin aren’t “diversions” (they are) or responses along the lines of “I found deep meaning in X” where “X” can be virtually any series in print. While I further realise that “finding meaning” is a subjective term, objectively speaking it is precisely the “speculative” in speculative fiction that distances it from reality and from the reality of the human condition. One can argue over the level of “diversion” in a particular series, but the fundamental premise is that every now and then, people should read books that aren’t diversions in order to grow.
I think your argument is a little weak here, Tom. Yes, there is often a "distance" of sorts in speculative narratives. However, that "distance" can be used to raise further questions of Place and Self that serve to engage readers. After all, Rabelais was much more than a "diversion" almost five centuries ago, no? Also, sometimes "distance" can be used to show just how inhumane human societies have been over time. Art Spiegelman's Maus is perhaps more effective than straight-up Holocaust narratives because it takes the "Jews" label/identification and uses the mice to make it more understandable for non-Jews. Sometimes, it might take a werewolf to show homo homini lupus.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie
Je suis méchant.
Je suis méchant.

In Support of Other Fiction
01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM
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01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM
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Re:
01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM
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you shouldn't feel the need to defend a non SF/F suggestion, just don't
03/12/2009 03:34:28 PM
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Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM
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I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality.
01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM
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That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That.
01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM
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I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point.
02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM
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perhaps some university will do a study
03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM
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I'd like to see it
03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM
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I Think I'll Post a Thread on This.
03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM
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I'd like to see it.
03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM
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Regarding depth in Jordan
03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM
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I was thinking about that too
03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM
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Re: I was thinking about that too
03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM
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Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM
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Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM
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It would. Destroying the Wheel would likely make him a Buddhist.
03/12/2009 10:51:17 PM
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I Totally Missed That.
04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM
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Re: I Totally Missed That.
04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM
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I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative.
04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM
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Re: Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
02/12/2009 12:28:30 AM
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I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time
01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM
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wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer???
03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM
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Nice post.
02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM
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I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half...
02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM
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Popcorn?
02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM
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I'm glad I could drive you from your Carthusian retreat, Larry
02/12/2009 01:58:49 AM
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It won't last for long - have too many things still to deal with in my life
02/12/2009 02:36:15 AM
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That's too bad. I'll have to learn monasterial sign language to continue a dialogue.
02/12/2009 03:49:01 AM
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I concur
02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM
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I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing).
02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM
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Am i the only one who reads books for fun?
02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM
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I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason.
02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM
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Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school,
02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM
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one of the things that is important to me in books/shows
03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM
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WoT has decent characterization, though a little overwrought. Harrington... not so much.
04/12/2009 04:26:43 AM
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Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie.
02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM
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Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous.
02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM
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I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting.
02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM
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I would not disagree with you if you said that.
02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM
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Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though.
03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM
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Which brings us back to my point.
03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM
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I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
04/12/2009 05:24:02 PM
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Re: I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
04/12/2009 10:42:33 PM
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Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category
02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM
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Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today
02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM
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"Pertinent", not "Pertinant". If it weren't in all caps I'd have ignored it this time.
02/12/2009 02:13:36 AM
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SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive
02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM
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So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction?
02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM
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Why must we limit our focus in that way?
02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM
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I don't see it as limiting or forcing.
02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM
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"Elite club" or "elitist clique"?
02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM
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Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay*
02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM
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I was born in the Midwest.
02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
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I know.
02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM
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...!
02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM
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Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM
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Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM
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Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist.
02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM
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Read what you like to read.
02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM
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I'll super size you. Fine. *NM*
02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM
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Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat!
02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM
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I seem to have struck a nerve.
02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM
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Apparently not the nerve you think, though.
02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM
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Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM
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Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM
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I really did get under your skin
02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM
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Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass.
03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM
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You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care.
03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM
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I keep replying. It's like a sickness.
03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM
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Hm.
02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM
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Re-read my exact point.
02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM
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No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential.
02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM
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There may have been an assumption about literature due to the reason for the post.
02/12/2009 02:37:47 PM
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Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy
02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM
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As I see it...
02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM
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Yep.
02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM
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Re: Yep.
02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM
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Euripides was poorly received, initially.
02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM
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I wasn't looking to generate controversy
02/12/2009 02:19:13 PM
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Well... then I'm going to have to agree with Craig a bit.
02/12/2009 02:32:59 PM
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Well, I was being somewhat denigrating. "Unnecessarily" or not is a matter of debate.
02/12/2009 02:40:29 PM
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Well, it's only "unnecessary" if you don't want people to be turned off of your message immediately. *NM*
02/12/2009 09:42:46 PM
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Judging from the responses, most people weren't turned off immediately.
02/12/2009 09:59:35 PM
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All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity.
02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM
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Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no.
02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM
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I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic
02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM
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It seems a regressive argument to me.
03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM
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You're playing a game.
03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM
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I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction.
03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM
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Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies?
02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM
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Bulgakov
02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM
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I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM
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Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM
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Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM
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Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM
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I suppose.
02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM
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Re: I suppose.
02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM
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This was something I was exploring earlier.
02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM
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Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist.
02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM
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I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction
02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM
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Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler.
02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM
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There's an interesting book in Russian that might be translated somewhere.
02/12/2009 10:02:48 PM
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i think it comes more down to quality than genre.
02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM
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I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points.
02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM
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the illiad is a classic
02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM
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There's only one "L" in Iliad
02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM
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It took me a few minutes to agree
02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM
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Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post!
02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM
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Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree.
02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM
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The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read.
02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM
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Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this.
02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM
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Heh
02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM
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I have a few objections.
03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM
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where else should we talk about it?
03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM
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There's a difference between having threads about it and focusing the official book club on it.
03/12/2009 12:40:53 AM
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This is the Sci-Fi and Fantasy Board for site optimization purposes.
03/12/2009 01:07:39 AM
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random thoughts stole my subject line
03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM
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I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy
03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM
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That's it
03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM
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Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following:
03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM
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technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM*
03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM
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Yes, it is but actually...
03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM
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But Dan Brown rocks da house!!!
*NM*
03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM
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another thing wrong with your argument
03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM
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Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad.
03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM
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sorry about my atrocious spelling
(including the one on pertinent)
03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM
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is it just me, or is this now the largest post/thread yet on RAFO.com??? 168 replies so far! *NM*
03/12/2009 05:03:25 PM
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Congratulations on the replies count
03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM
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That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM
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Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM
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But the objective truth of a setting can be measured.
04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM
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But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book?
06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM
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Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM
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Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM
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I've obviously missed the show here...
04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM
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I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing.
04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM
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What, your penis?
06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM
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Don't you know it!
06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM
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You talk the talk, that's for sure.
07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM
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Metaphor versus literalism
04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM
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Metaphor divorced from the reality runs risks, however.
04/12/2009 10:25:47 PM
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Honestly, the moral can always be dismissed as inapplicable if you want to dismiss it.
05/12/2009 12:16:39 AM
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While that's true, it's much harder to just dismiss Mockingbird.
05/12/2009 03:57:42 AM
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Then why read fiction at all? It's all a diversion.
05/12/2009 04:16:06 PM
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I think people should read non-fiction, and The Nine Hundred Days is an excellent book.
05/12/2009 04:41:50 PM
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aha. but.
07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM
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