Active Users:706 Time:08/11/2025 10:54:33 PM
You're playing a game. Jacob Send a noteboard - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM
You are carefully choosing adjectives to parse out difference in quality of meaning based primarily on how close a setting mirrors a history/location/event that you know of or can reasonably be certain of understanding.

You seem to think that I'm staging some grand mirror show of a post modern argument... that there is no real meaning. Bull. My statement is that no matter how rooted in a real setting, with real place, time, and events, that book can still seem far-fetched and unrelated to the reality of an average reader, based on their experiences, beliefs, education, etc. A person can argue the 'reality' of the circumstances of a story, but does that really matter to a reader, to whom it doesn't correlate to anything truly concrete? I guess the answer to that question is that it depends on what is truly important in that story. If the central aspect of the story is the loss of a child and how that can change a person, the struggles and challenges. The ability to truly explore that in writing, to possibly give insight into humanity, does not necessarily depend on place, or the reality of it. If a story is as much about a place and time, a set of circumstances, then the reality of the setting is vitally important to the experience of the story. Hans Fallada's EVERY MAN DIES ALONE is a good example of a story that is as much about loss as it is about living as a German in Berlin during WWII. The combination of the two is a powerful and thrilling novel. (The exception here being truly well achieved distopian, or near-future cautionary, sci-fi which can use the bit of freedom to closely explore the current society, politics, institutions, or whatever.)

It seems that the issue that I have with your response is two-fold. I am not making the statement that all books are equal, or that the individual experience of reading them is the only value of a book. I believe that some books hold a true and discernible value beyond any individual experience. Secondly, I believe that you're viewing framing your argument through the lens of the very best of 'Other Fiction' compared to the collective average of speculative fiction. I've read a great many bad or mediocre books that fall either category. I've read more truly great books that would be considered 'Other Fiction', though there are a great deal more books in that category. I believe that the very best speculative fiction novels can comfortably stand with most of the best Other Fiction.

Now, we've both spend more time than needed on this, since our basic argument is the same. People need to read more than just genre fiction.

I think that it's important that everyone reads. If a person is only capable of reading a couple books in a year and it is Harry Potter, the person still is reading. If a person has read a 100 books, and they're all Harry Potter and the equivalent, I find that to be rather sad. If a person considers themselves a reader but they're not reading a wide variety books, classics, history, biographies, literature, speculative fiction, I know that person is doing a great disservice to themselves.

In response to your father, those movies are crap. Entertaining, popcorn movie, crap. Tolkien has always been interesting in his mythic storytelling and world building as well and an entertaining epic fantasy. Escapism for most people, and not much more than that. It is one of the best of what it is though. My wife has much the same opinion as your father when it comes to things that require a suspension of belief. Though oddly, she did love the tv show Firefly.
Reply to message
In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2287 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1335 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1331 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 689 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1259 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1348 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1385 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1330 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1314 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1344 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1283 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1315 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1271 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1309 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1294 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1299 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1377 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1259 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1311 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1363 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1343 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1456 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1346 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1301 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1367 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1300 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1449 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1387 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1369 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1350 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1223 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1389 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1282 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1310 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1579 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1240 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1408 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1345 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1383 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1366 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1421 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1288 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1160 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1280 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1356 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1290 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 612 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1338 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1229 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1384 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1372 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1285 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1304 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1281 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1212 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1286 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1352 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 572 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1379 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1316 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1287 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1222 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1199 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1278 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1336 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1341 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1319 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1312 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1297 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1290 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1411 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1255 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1245 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1262 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1251 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 674 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1417 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1297 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1250 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1281 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1443 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1218 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1240 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1284 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1222 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1226 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1260 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1250 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 1150 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1208 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1264 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1353 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 623 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1256 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1292 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1363 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1283 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1291 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1204 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1205 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1355 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1200 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1199 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1276 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1235 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1254 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1170 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 617 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1227 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1276 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1859 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1215 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1352 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1372 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1260 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1408 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1273 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1191 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1223 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1273 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1214 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1379 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1254 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1219 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1239 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1194 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1297 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 594 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1292 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1315 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1186 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1281 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1250 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1162 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1209 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1262 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1260 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1271 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 621 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1204 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1312 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1256 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1343 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1315 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1281 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1240 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1258 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1237 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 641 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 613 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1239 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1257 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1215 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 666 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1343 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1226 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1248 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1321 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1271 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1266 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1247 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1281 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1221 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1366 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1342 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1352 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1223 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1193 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1340 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1302 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1241 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1309 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1301 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1351 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1380 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1271 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1338 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 535 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 666 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 653 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1270 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1202 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1238 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 643 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 653 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 642 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1273 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 1084 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1377 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1314 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1270 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1229 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1376 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1300 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1335 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1232 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1406 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1175 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1290 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1265 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1300 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1259 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1229 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1310 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1216 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1334 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1244 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 1121 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1278 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1329 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1391 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1297 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1438 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1361 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1258 Views

Reply to Message