Active Users:739 Time:02/07/2026 08:02:36 PM
You're playing a game. Jacob Send a noteboard - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM
You are carefully choosing adjectives to parse out difference in quality of meaning based primarily on how close a setting mirrors a history/location/event that you know of or can reasonably be certain of understanding.

You seem to think that I'm staging some grand mirror show of a post modern argument... that there is no real meaning. Bull. My statement is that no matter how rooted in a real setting, with real place, time, and events, that book can still seem far-fetched and unrelated to the reality of an average reader, based on their experiences, beliefs, education, etc. A person can argue the 'reality' of the circumstances of a story, but does that really matter to a reader, to whom it doesn't correlate to anything truly concrete? I guess the answer to that question is that it depends on what is truly important in that story. If the central aspect of the story is the loss of a child and how that can change a person, the struggles and challenges. The ability to truly explore that in writing, to possibly give insight into humanity, does not necessarily depend on place, or the reality of it. If a story is as much about a place and time, a set of circumstances, then the reality of the setting is vitally important to the experience of the story. Hans Fallada's EVERY MAN DIES ALONE is a good example of a story that is as much about loss as it is about living as a German in Berlin during WWII. The combination of the two is a powerful and thrilling novel. (The exception here being truly well achieved distopian, or near-future cautionary, sci-fi which can use the bit of freedom to closely explore the current society, politics, institutions, or whatever.)

It seems that the issue that I have with your response is two-fold. I am not making the statement that all books are equal, or that the individual experience of reading them is the only value of a book. I believe that some books hold a true and discernible value beyond any individual experience. Secondly, I believe that you're viewing framing your argument through the lens of the very best of 'Other Fiction' compared to the collective average of speculative fiction. I've read a great many bad or mediocre books that fall either category. I've read more truly great books that would be considered 'Other Fiction', though there are a great deal more books in that category. I believe that the very best speculative fiction novels can comfortably stand with most of the best Other Fiction.

Now, we've both spend more time than needed on this, since our basic argument is the same. People need to read more than just genre fiction.

I think that it's important that everyone reads. If a person is only capable of reading a couple books in a year and it is Harry Potter, the person still is reading. If a person has read a 100 books, and they're all Harry Potter and the equivalent, I find that to be rather sad. If a person considers themselves a reader but they're not reading a wide variety books, classics, history, biographies, literature, speculative fiction, I know that person is doing a great disservice to themselves.

In response to your father, those movies are crap. Entertaining, popcorn movie, crap. Tolkien has always been interesting in his mythic storytelling and world building as well and an entertaining epic fantasy. Escapism for most people, and not much more than that. It is one of the best of what it is though. My wife has much the same opinion as your father when it comes to things that require a suspension of belief. Though oddly, she did love the tv show Firefly.
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2443 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1511 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1510 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 782 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1441 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1516 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1579 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1486 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1480 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1512 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1453 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1511 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1457 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1538 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1476 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1470 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1546 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1408 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1493 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1574 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1507 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1642 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1515 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1479 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1542 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1468 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1613 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1549 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1527 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1525 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1393 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1565 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1470 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1469 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1755 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1416 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1555 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1512 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1550 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1533 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1577 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1463 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1321 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1444 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1521 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1446 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 708 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1494 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1377 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1533 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1536 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1466 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1464 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1470 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1376 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1447 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1529 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 657 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1543 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1492 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1459 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1404 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1383 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1475 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1491 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1502 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1519 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1486 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1469 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1445 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1588 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1415 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1430 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1430 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1403 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 759 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1604 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1439 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1436 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1439 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1605 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1392 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1392 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1470 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1395 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1389 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1426 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1432 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 1312 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1401 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1434 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1563 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 709 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1445 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1466 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1531 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1483 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1455 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1371 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1378 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1528 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1359 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1365 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1436 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1401 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1426 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1329 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 697 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1392 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1432 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 2036 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1379 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1510 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1558 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1434 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1571 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1441 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1356 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1373 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1435 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1380 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1579 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1423 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1390 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1409 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1364 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1469 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 689 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1502 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1476 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1333 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1466 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1418 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1326 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1385 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1424 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1403 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1426 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 702 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1370 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1506 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1424 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1512 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1467 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1447 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1414 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1430 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1392 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 783 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 710 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1415 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1409 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1386 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 761 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1507 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1373 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1413 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1480 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1438 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1433 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1410 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1460 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1389 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1608 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1499 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1532 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1372 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1348 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1536 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1451 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1435 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1488 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1454 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1515 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1558 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1440 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1502 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 616 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 747 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 730 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1424 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1360 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1417 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 719 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 747 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 730 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1457 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 1257 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1545 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1482 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1429 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1414 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1540 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1470 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1500 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1416 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1562 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1356 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1469 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1445 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1473 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1429 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1411 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1462 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1378 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1499 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1444 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 1298 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1456 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1480 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1548 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1474 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1599 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1549 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1438 Views

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