Active Users:500 Time:01/04/2026 08:06:21 AM
You're playing a game. Jacob Send a noteboard - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM
You are carefully choosing adjectives to parse out difference in quality of meaning based primarily on how close a setting mirrors a history/location/event that you know of or can reasonably be certain of understanding.

You seem to think that I'm staging some grand mirror show of a post modern argument... that there is no real meaning. Bull. My statement is that no matter how rooted in a real setting, with real place, time, and events, that book can still seem far-fetched and unrelated to the reality of an average reader, based on their experiences, beliefs, education, etc. A person can argue the 'reality' of the circumstances of a story, but does that really matter to a reader, to whom it doesn't correlate to anything truly concrete? I guess the answer to that question is that it depends on what is truly important in that story. If the central aspect of the story is the loss of a child and how that can change a person, the struggles and challenges. The ability to truly explore that in writing, to possibly give insight into humanity, does not necessarily depend on place, or the reality of it. If a story is as much about a place and time, a set of circumstances, then the reality of the setting is vitally important to the experience of the story. Hans Fallada's EVERY MAN DIES ALONE is a good example of a story that is as much about loss as it is about living as a German in Berlin during WWII. The combination of the two is a powerful and thrilling novel. (The exception here being truly well achieved distopian, or near-future cautionary, sci-fi which can use the bit of freedom to closely explore the current society, politics, institutions, or whatever.)

It seems that the issue that I have with your response is two-fold. I am not making the statement that all books are equal, or that the individual experience of reading them is the only value of a book. I believe that some books hold a true and discernible value beyond any individual experience. Secondly, I believe that you're viewing framing your argument through the lens of the very best of 'Other Fiction' compared to the collective average of speculative fiction. I've read a great many bad or mediocre books that fall either category. I've read more truly great books that would be considered 'Other Fiction', though there are a great deal more books in that category. I believe that the very best speculative fiction novels can comfortably stand with most of the best Other Fiction.

Now, we've both spend more time than needed on this, since our basic argument is the same. People need to read more than just genre fiction.

I think that it's important that everyone reads. If a person is only capable of reading a couple books in a year and it is Harry Potter, the person still is reading. If a person has read a 100 books, and they're all Harry Potter and the equivalent, I find that to be rather sad. If a person considers themselves a reader but they're not reading a wide variety books, classics, history, biographies, literature, speculative fiction, I know that person is doing a great disservice to themselves.

In response to your father, those movies are crap. Entertaining, popcorn movie, crap. Tolkien has always been interesting in his mythic storytelling and world building as well and an entertaining epic fantasy. Escapism for most people, and not much more than that. It is one of the best of what it is though. My wife has much the same opinion as your father when it comes to things that require a suspension of belief. Though oddly, she did love the tv show Firefly.
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2395 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1446 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1451 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 752 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1380 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1460 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1511 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1428 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1426 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1453 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1397 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1437 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1390 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1471 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1421 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1412 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1486 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1352 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1427 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1515 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1451 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1579 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1463 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1423 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1480 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1416 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1562 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1494 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1469 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1469 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1340 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1505 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1408 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1411 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1694 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1355 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1510 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1447 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1492 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1469 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1526 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1403 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1271 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1391 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1460 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1395 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 672 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1440 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1316 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1483 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1479 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1409 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1408 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1411 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1325 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1391 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1470 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 628 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1488 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1437 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1398 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1338 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1315 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1414 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1438 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1444 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1448 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1427 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1412 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1389 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1516 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1350 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1370 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1378 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1350 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 733 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1538 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1388 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1381 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1381 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1549 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1331 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1340 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1406 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1335 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1330 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1366 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1371 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 1252 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1338 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1373 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1495 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 678 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1389 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1391 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1475 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1425 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1396 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1318 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1326 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1472 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1312 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1318 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1380 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1349 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1367 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1277 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 668 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1340 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1374 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1977 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1321 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1456 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1489 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1373 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1519 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1378 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1306 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1320 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1379 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1327 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1518 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1373 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1335 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1356 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1304 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1405 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 651 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1407 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1413 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1278 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1408 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1357 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1269 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1337 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1369 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1352 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1374 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 671 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1313 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1429 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1349 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1457 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1415 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1387 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1362 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1371 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1342 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 729 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 672 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1355 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1360 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1332 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 734 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1455 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1321 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1351 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1427 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1387 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1374 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1354 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1399 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1336 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1515 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1438 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1469 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1321 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1295 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1482 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1391 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1386 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1428 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1397 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1458 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1506 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1378 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1454 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 587 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 711 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 701 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1374 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1310 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1351 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 688 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 717 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 693 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1400 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 1192 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1478 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1413 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1370 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1350 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1480 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1401 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1439 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1349 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1506 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1292 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1414 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1384 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1409 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1370 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1356 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1414 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1321 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1439 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1381 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 1243 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1396 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1424 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1495 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1412 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1551 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1493 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1382 Views

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