Active Users:611 Time:17/06/2026 02:18:56 PM
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. Camilla Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM
Have I completely misunderstood that term all this time?

No, but I can see where he's coming from when he uses the term, even if it's not very exact... he makes an association between that whole postmodern "the author's intention doesn't matter, any supportable interpretation goes" thing, and "touchy-feely" notions of the "you can't say someone's opinion about a book is wrong, they have a right to see things from their own perspective" variety, and dismisses both because he thinks that no, an author's intent certainly does matter, and some interpretations or views of literary books are indeed wrong.


I hate that misconception. No literary theory worth its salt argues that "you can't say someone's opinion is wrong". All they say is that you can get different interpretations from the same piece of texts. Confusing the two is like saying all fourlegged creatures are cats. It bugs me no end.

Of course some interpretations are wrong, or certainly lack validity. But that must be based in whether they follow the text or not. Not what we THINK the author may have intended. On authorial intention, see below.

Not at all. I agree completely that one individual can't claim to be the arbiter of the value or meaning. Precisely because there isn't ONE meaning. One interpretation does not necessarily invalidate another. Different readings of a text can coexist quite cheerfully.

I agree with this...

What Dumas intended is really beside the point. For all we know this was his attempt at substance. His intention is not accessible to us.

but not with this. It's become a huge cliché that postmodernists think the author's intent doesn't matter, and perhaps they merely say that as some kind of boutade (is that word used in English?), but it turns a lot of people off from postmodernist literary theory, because they feel strongly that yes, the intent of the author does matter, of course it does. That doesn't mean one cannot interpret the text differently, but still.


Boutade? I looked it up in the oed, and it says it means a sally or sudden outburst. I am not sure I understand.

The problem with authorial intention is (in the main) twofold:
-we have no access to it.
-it cannot fix meaning.

The first is basically down to psychoanalysis, I suppose. Even disregarding that the author might make up his intention after the fact (lie or deceive himself), the whole theory of the subconscious can be summed up in the knowledge that we do not have conscious control over all aspects of our actions.

The second is down to the nature of language as shared. Because it is communal and the meaning in it is not fixed, but subject to continuous change and individual interpretation: this means that not only is the idea of a pure thought transmitted directly through language to be decoded by the listener/reader an inherent impossibility (since language is not mathematical with fixed rules for encoding or decoding), the author is even formulating his text in borrowed language -- something that he does not control.

Neither of these are really difficult concepts, but because the trend in our society tends towards oversimplification, it becomes a caricature of itself.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
Reply to message
The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open! - 25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM 2835 Views
Le plot. - 25/01/2010 10:55:26 PM 1601 Views
Plot: demarcation, plan, complot... - 26/01/2010 11:48:19 PM 1771 Views
Les characters. - 25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM 1704 Views
The good, the bad and the ugly. - 26/01/2010 10:54:38 AM 1722 Views
Hmm. - 27/01/2010 03:58:31 PM 1643 Views
Re: Hmm. - 27/01/2010 04:59:12 PM 1681 Views
Re: Hmm. - 28/01/2010 01:40:34 PM 1631 Views
Re: Hmm. - 01/02/2010 12:49:06 PM 1848 Views
Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM 1668 Views
Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography? - 25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM 1801 Views
I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM 1727 Views
Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM 1751 Views
In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying. - 27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM 1893 Views
Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM 1757 Views
Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text. - 27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM 1605 Views
There is no such thing - 27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM 1653 Views
I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel. - 27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM 1703 Views
It isn't a postmodern take on it - 27/01/2010 02:41:32 PM 1679 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM 1657 Views
Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol. - 27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM 1710 Views
If I ddin't know better, I might think you a trifle petulant - 27/01/2010 04:19:57 PM 1754 Views
I'm never petulant - 27/01/2010 04:55:56 PM 1603 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 04:47:37 PM 1768 Views
I think one important question to ask is... - 26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM 1752 Views
I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time. - 26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM 1712 Views
the potentially removable part... - 26/01/2010 11:24:16 AM 1741 Views
I have read both - 27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM 1764 Views
The abridged versus the unabridged - 28/01/2010 06:32:22 AM 1709 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 27/01/2010 01:16:47 AM 1859 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 30/01/2010 09:12:22 AM 1679 Views
Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter: - 22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM 1882 Views
I'm watching right back, Big Brother. *NM* - 25/01/2010 11:44:30 PM 880 Views
*NM* - 25/01/2010 11:45:27 PM 861 Views
The book was very childish. - 26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM 1838 Views
Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM 903 Views
No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM 1742 Views
You know, this is a problem. - 26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM 1740 Views
There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above. - 26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM 1804 Views
People tend to forget one thing about Tolkien - 26/01/2010 01:36:06 PM 1672 Views
Re: No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM 1672 Views
I'll admit the only Lem I've read is Solaris... - 26/01/2010 01:52:02 PM 1752 Views
Read His Master's Voice - 26/01/2010 04:52:31 PM 1657 Views
You make some rather odd claims here, Tom - 27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM 1762 Views
You place undue importance on academic degrees. - 27/01/2010 01:19:40 AM 1747 Views
You misread totally what I said, I see... - 27/01/2010 01:52:59 AM 1648 Views
My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common. - 27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM 1727 Views
In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays - 27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM 1674 Views
If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you? - 27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM 1683 Views
I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors - 27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM 1763 Views
Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled. - 27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM 1806 Views
But yet their reactions vary widely - 27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM 1682 Views
My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction. - 28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM 1679 Views
And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels - 29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM 1595 Views
I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted. - 29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM 1644 Views
I think estrangement is a key element, though - 30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM 1678 Views
I don't think estrangement is a necessary element. - 30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM 1788 Views
I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader - 31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM 1640 Views
Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree. - 03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM 1611 Views
Depends on how you view SF, I suppose - 03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM 1457 Views
I thought that was what we were mulling over - 03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM 1637 Views
True - 03/02/2010 05:11:19 AM 1581 Views
Nice tie-in! - 03/02/2010 01:55:33 PM 1652 Views
- 05/02/2010 06:06:23 AM 1679 Views
The approve of this message. - 26/01/2010 03:34:49 AM 1730 Views
I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question - 26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM 1645 Views
Wait...you VOTED for this book? - 26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM 1686 Views
I honestly can't remember. - 26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM 1634 Views
Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written. - 26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM 1689 Views
Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better. - 26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM 1651 Views
The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good. - 26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM 1707 Views
Possession is not "purely a romance novel". - 26/01/2010 02:57:17 PM 1849 Views
Which basically proves my entire point. - 26/01/2010 03:00:20 PM 1709 Views
Which is purely a romance novel? - 26/01/2010 02:59:38 PM 1710 Views
Fair enough, it might be a bit tricky to discuss. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:04:58 PM 870 Views
In your opinion - 26/01/2010 03:07:12 PM 1739 Views
Exactly why I avoid suggesting modern books - 26/01/2010 03:10:09 PM 1718 Views
You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you? - 27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM 1701 Views
Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me. - 27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM 1595 Views
Ha! - 27/01/2010 02:22:00 AM 1654 Views
Perhaps I would like it. I still hate epistolary novels. - 27/01/2010 01:26:43 PM 1716 Views
Indeed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 02:01:22 PM 849 Views
It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level. - 26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM 1757 Views
Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog - 26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM 1825 Views
I don't care if this validates your opinion of me. - 29/01/2010 11:06:18 PM 1568 Views
On what basis? - 26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM 1738 Views
It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed. - 26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM 1761 Views
Usually does, when those who know better keep silent. - 26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM 1672 Views
I didn't keep silent, though. - 26/01/2010 04:46:48 PM 1731 Views
You're ignoring what we've been discussing. - 27/01/2010 11:11:44 AM 1700 Views
Regarding comfort zones - 26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM 1751 Views
Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM 1799 Views
Re: Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM 1744 Views
If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed. - 27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM 1812 Views
Possibly - 27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM 1647 Views
I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM 1666 Views
Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM 1661 Views
I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM 1825 Views
Don't you get it? We bring this place down. - 27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM 1646 Views
Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM 1662 Views
While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus. - 27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM 1652 Views
why is it a bonus? - 27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM 1620 Views
I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete. - 27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM 1899 Views
I did - 27/01/2010 04:40:25 PM 1678 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM 1747 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:59:31 AM 1702 Views
Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:07:14 PM 1654 Views
Re: Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:09:02 PM 1678 Views
Re: The book was very childish. - 30/01/2010 09:56:29 PM 1679 Views
I read it in French - 30/01/2010 10:54:34 PM 1576 Views
So. I really liked it. - 26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM 1854 Views
Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM 1654 Views
Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM 1719 Views
We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM 1796 Views
Re: We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM 1813 Views
If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown. - 27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM 1771 Views
Feel free to. - 27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM 1754 Views
Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM 1664 Views
Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM 1745 Views
I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach. - 27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM 1576 Views
My touchy-feely approach? - 27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM 1659 Views
Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis. - 27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM 1663 Views
Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion? - 27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM 1649 Views
I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM 1624 Views
You summed up my reasons for using "touchy-feely" quite well. - 27/01/2010 07:27:45 PM 1658 Views
Glad to hear it. - 27/01/2010 07:39:20 PM 1517 Views
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM 1709 Views
See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM 1749 Views
Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM 1670 Views
Well, so what will it be? - 27/01/2010 09:14:53 PM 1608 Views
Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours? - 27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM 1557 Views
Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM 1803 Views
Re: Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 02:10:04 PM 1683 Views
Right then. - 27/01/2010 02:15:04 PM 1647 Views
All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two. - 27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM 1722 Views
And ANOTHER THING - 27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM 1577 Views
Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM* - 27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM 937 Views
Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM 1738 Views
Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM 1693 Views
We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM 1635 Views
In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions... - 27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM 1792 Views
It was mildly interesting. - 27/01/2010 09:04:03 PM 1722 Views
I think you're misreading that... - 27/01/2010 10:18:11 PM 1777 Views
Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM 1764 Views
The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do. - 27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM 1641 Views
fine. *NM* - 27/01/2010 09:12:44 PM 872 Views
Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not. - 27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM 1677 Views
What discussion? - 27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM 1681 Views
I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms. - 27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM 1770 Views
Which I still think we can. - 27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM 1637 Views
Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM 1740 Views
Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM 1689 Views
You have yet to show any utility for breaking things down. - 27/01/2010 09:19:29 PM 1816 Views
I haven't tried to show any "utility" for it. - 01/02/2010 01:06:35 PM 1609 Views
I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM 1663 Views
Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM 1614 Views
Deary me. - 27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM 1882 Views
By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates? - 27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM 1642 Views
Not at all. - 27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM 1777 Views
Okay, I'm cool with that. - 27/01/2010 05:44:54 PM 1768 Views
Thank you. - 27/01/2010 05:48:05 PM 2341 Views
Please ban me, then. - 27/01/2010 06:44:55 PM 1603 Views
Nods - 18/02/2010 05:06:44 PM 2115 Views
Oh man, I love this thread. *NM* - 28/01/2010 01:17:58 AM 850 Views
On the nature of the "Book Club" - 28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM 1548 Views
Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions? - 28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM 1798 Views
Yes, shorter would be good. - 28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM 1617 Views
Oh i'm not complaining - 28/01/2010 10:33:48 PM 1632 Views
Sure sounded like it. - 28/01/2010 10:38:27 PM 1659 Views
No for reals, shorter is good. - 29/01/2010 01:08:26 AM 1654 Views
Absolutely. - 29/01/2010 03:33:15 AM 1606 Views
Agreed - 29/01/2010 11:26:34 AM 1646 Views
Well, you should have known better! - 29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM 1644 Views
I do. - 29/01/2010 08:31:30 PM 1635 Views
Thought you did - 29/01/2010 08:38:39 PM 1613 Views
- 29/01/2010 08:51:42 PM 1627 Views
All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED. *NM* - 29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM 833 Views
That is the other one that I am considering. *NM* - 29/01/2010 03:32:02 AM 861 Views
I'll re-read Zhivago or Master if either is chosen - 29/01/2010 05:26:02 AM 1609 Views
Talk to me Ghavrel. - 30/01/2010 12:09:24 AM 1569 Views
Well, I haven't finished it yet. - 30/01/2010 02:21:08 AM 1635 Views
Re: On the nature of the "Book Club" - 29/01/2010 12:33:03 PM 1571 Views
I didn't read it for the Book Club - 29/01/2010 12:40:22 AM 1628 Views
Well I'm late to the party - 29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM 1622 Views
No, you're early - 01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM 1542 Views
I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM* - 03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM 903 Views
A few comments - 04/02/2010 06:39:18 AM 1903 Views
If I kept you from participating, that's your fault. - 04/02/2010 01:01:46 PM 1576 Views
An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience? - 29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM 1635 Views
Sure. - 01/02/2010 03:23:59 PM 1618 Views

Reply to Message