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Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. Camilla Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM
Have I completely misunderstood that term all this time?

No, but I can see where he's coming from when he uses the term, even if it's not very exact... he makes an association between that whole postmodern "the author's intention doesn't matter, any supportable interpretation goes" thing, and "touchy-feely" notions of the "you can't say someone's opinion about a book is wrong, they have a right to see things from their own perspective" variety, and dismisses both because he thinks that no, an author's intent certainly does matter, and some interpretations or views of literary books are indeed wrong.


I hate that misconception. No literary theory worth its salt argues that "you can't say someone's opinion is wrong". All they say is that you can get different interpretations from the same piece of texts. Confusing the two is like saying all fourlegged creatures are cats. It bugs me no end.

Of course some interpretations are wrong, or certainly lack validity. But that must be based in whether they follow the text or not. Not what we THINK the author may have intended. On authorial intention, see below.

Not at all. I agree completely that one individual can't claim to be the arbiter of the value or meaning. Precisely because there isn't ONE meaning. One interpretation does not necessarily invalidate another. Different readings of a text can coexist quite cheerfully.

I agree with this...

What Dumas intended is really beside the point. For all we know this was his attempt at substance. His intention is not accessible to us.

but not with this. It's become a huge cliché that postmodernists think the author's intent doesn't matter, and perhaps they merely say that as some kind of boutade (is that word used in English?), but it turns a lot of people off from postmodernist literary theory, because they feel strongly that yes, the intent of the author does matter, of course it does. That doesn't mean one cannot interpret the text differently, but still.


Boutade? I looked it up in the oed, and it says it means a sally or sudden outburst. I am not sure I understand.

The problem with authorial intention is (in the main) twofold:
-we have no access to it.
-it cannot fix meaning.

The first is basically down to psychoanalysis, I suppose. Even disregarding that the author might make up his intention after the fact (lie or deceive himself), the whole theory of the subconscious can be summed up in the knowledge that we do not have conscious control over all aspects of our actions.

The second is down to the nature of language as shared. Because it is communal and the meaning in it is not fixed, but subject to continuous change and individual interpretation: this means that not only is the idea of a pure thought transmitted directly through language to be decoded by the listener/reader an inherent impossibility (since language is not mathematical with fixed rules for encoding or decoding), the author is even formulating his text in borrowed language -- something that he does not control.

Neither of these are really difficult concepts, but because the trend in our society tends towards oversimplification, it becomes a caricature of itself.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open! - 25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM 2718 Views
Le plot. - 25/01/2010 10:55:26 PM 1482 Views
Plot: demarcation, plan, complot... - 26/01/2010 11:48:19 PM 1647 Views
Les characters. - 25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM 1588 Views
The good, the bad and the ugly. - 26/01/2010 10:54:38 AM 1601 Views
Hmm. - 27/01/2010 03:58:31 PM 1534 Views
Re: Hmm. - 27/01/2010 04:59:12 PM 1579 Views
Re: Hmm. - 28/01/2010 01:40:34 PM 1526 Views
Re: Hmm. - 01/02/2010 12:49:06 PM 1734 Views
Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM 1552 Views
Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography? - 25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM 1681 Views
I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM 1611 Views
Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM 1649 Views
In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying. - 27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM 1755 Views
Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM 1645 Views
Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text. - 27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM 1478 Views
There is no such thing - 27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM 1535 Views
I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel. - 27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM 1586 Views
It isn't a postmodern take on it - 27/01/2010 02:41:32 PM 1564 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM 1541 Views
Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol. - 27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM 1595 Views
If I ddin't know better, I might think you a trifle petulant - 27/01/2010 04:19:57 PM 1647 Views
I'm never petulant - 27/01/2010 04:55:56 PM 1490 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 04:47:37 PM 1657 Views
I think one important question to ask is... - 26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM 1638 Views
I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time. - 26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM 1602 Views
the potentially removable part... - 26/01/2010 11:24:16 AM 1614 Views
I have read both - 27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM 1652 Views
The abridged versus the unabridged - 28/01/2010 06:32:22 AM 1591 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 27/01/2010 01:16:47 AM 1703 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 30/01/2010 09:12:22 AM 1576 Views
Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter: - 22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM 1759 Views
I'm watching right back, Big Brother. *NM* - 25/01/2010 11:44:30 PM 820 Views
*NM* - 25/01/2010 11:45:27 PM 812 Views
The book was very childish. - 26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM 1705 Views
Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM 854 Views
No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM 1633 Views
You know, this is a problem. - 26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM 1613 Views
There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above. - 26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM 1690 Views
People tend to forget one thing about Tolkien - 26/01/2010 01:36:06 PM 1564 Views
Re: No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM 1555 Views
I'll admit the only Lem I've read is Solaris... - 26/01/2010 01:52:02 PM 1630 Views
Read His Master's Voice - 26/01/2010 04:52:31 PM 1541 Views
You make some rather odd claims here, Tom - 27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM 1635 Views
You place undue importance on academic degrees. - 27/01/2010 01:19:40 AM 1633 Views
You misread totally what I said, I see... - 27/01/2010 01:52:59 AM 1537 Views
My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common. - 27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM 1598 Views
In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays - 27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM 1541 Views
If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you? - 27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM 1576 Views
I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors - 27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM 1651 Views
Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled. - 27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM 1702 Views
But yet their reactions vary widely - 27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM 1570 Views
My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction. - 28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM 1557 Views
And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels - 29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM 1481 Views
I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted. - 29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM 1535 Views
I think estrangement is a key element, though - 30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM 1558 Views
I don't think estrangement is a necessary element. - 30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM 1691 Views
I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader - 31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM 1528 Views
Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree. - 03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM 1501 Views
Depends on how you view SF, I suppose - 03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM 1347 Views
I thought that was what we were mulling over - 03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM 1518 Views
True - 03/02/2010 05:11:19 AM 1451 Views
Nice tie-in! - 03/02/2010 01:55:33 PM 1515 Views
- 05/02/2010 06:06:23 AM 1579 Views
The approve of this message. - 26/01/2010 03:34:49 AM 1603 Views
I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question - 26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM 1524 Views
Wait...you VOTED for this book? - 26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM 1578 Views
I honestly can't remember. - 26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM 1521 Views
Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written. - 26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM 1569 Views
Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better. - 26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM 1543 Views
The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good. - 26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM 1602 Views
Possession is not "purely a romance novel". - 26/01/2010 02:57:17 PM 1739 Views
Which basically proves my entire point. - 26/01/2010 03:00:20 PM 1591 Views
Which is purely a romance novel? - 26/01/2010 02:59:38 PM 1602 Views
Fair enough, it might be a bit tricky to discuss. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:04:58 PM 816 Views
In your opinion - 26/01/2010 03:07:12 PM 1621 Views
Exactly why I avoid suggesting modern books - 26/01/2010 03:10:09 PM 1597 Views
You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you? - 27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM 1585 Views
Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me. - 27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM 1476 Views
Ha! - 27/01/2010 02:22:00 AM 1535 Views
Perhaps I would like it. I still hate epistolary novels. - 27/01/2010 01:26:43 PM 1588 Views
Indeed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 02:01:22 PM 773 Views
It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level. - 26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM 1632 Views
Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog - 26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM 1699 Views
I don't care if this validates your opinion of me. - 29/01/2010 11:06:18 PM 1464 Views
On what basis? - 26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM 1647 Views
It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed. - 26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM 1654 Views
Usually does, when those who know better keep silent. - 26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM 1529 Views
I didn't keep silent, though. - 26/01/2010 04:46:48 PM 1623 Views
You're ignoring what we've been discussing. - 27/01/2010 11:11:44 AM 1568 Views
Regarding comfort zones - 26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM 1640 Views
Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM 1682 Views
Re: Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM 1621 Views
If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed. - 27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM 1696 Views
Possibly - 27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM 1538 Views
I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM 1571 Views
Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM 1557 Views
I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM 1696 Views
Don't you get it? We bring this place down. - 27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM 1525 Views
Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM 1534 Views
While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus. - 27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM 1540 Views
why is it a bonus? - 27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM 1513 Views
I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete. - 27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM 1785 Views
I did - 27/01/2010 04:40:25 PM 1567 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM 1635 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:59:31 AM 1575 Views
Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:07:14 PM 1543 Views
Re: Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:09:02 PM 1557 Views
Re: The book was very childish. - 30/01/2010 09:56:29 PM 1575 Views
I read it in French - 30/01/2010 10:54:34 PM 1455 Views
So. I really liked it. - 26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM 1719 Views
Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM 1547 Views
Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM 1610 Views
We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM 1683 Views
Re: We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM 1695 Views
If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown. - 27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM 1668 Views
Feel free to. - 27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM 1634 Views
Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM 1550 Views
Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM 1623 Views
I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach. - 27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM 1478 Views
My touchy-feely approach? - 27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM 1543 Views
Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis. - 27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM 1550 Views
Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion? - 27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM 1543 Views
I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM 1509 Views
You summed up my reasons for using "touchy-feely" quite well. - 27/01/2010 07:27:45 PM 1529 Views
Glad to hear it. - 27/01/2010 07:39:20 PM 1402 Views
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM 1582 Views
See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM 1647 Views
Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM 1553 Views
Well, so what will it be? - 27/01/2010 09:14:53 PM 1485 Views
Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours? - 27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM 1444 Views
Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM 1692 Views
Re: Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 02:10:04 PM 1571 Views
Right then. - 27/01/2010 02:15:04 PM 1537 Views
All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two. - 27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM 1600 Views
And ANOTHER THING - 27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM 1462 Views
Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM* - 27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM 885 Views
Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM 1632 Views
Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM 1576 Views
We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM 1534 Views
In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions... - 27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM 1674 Views
It was mildly interesting. - 27/01/2010 09:04:03 PM 1613 Views
I think you're misreading that... - 27/01/2010 10:18:11 PM 1670 Views
Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM 1650 Views
The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do. - 27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM 1518 Views
fine. *NM* - 27/01/2010 09:12:44 PM 815 Views
Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not. - 27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM 1560 Views
What discussion? - 27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM 1583 Views
I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms. - 27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM 1660 Views
Which I still think we can. - 27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM 1529 Views
Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM 1622 Views
Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM 1571 Views
You have yet to show any utility for breaking things down. - 27/01/2010 09:19:29 PM 1705 Views
I haven't tried to show any "utility" for it. - 01/02/2010 01:06:35 PM 1498 Views
I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM 1566 Views
Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM 1486 Views
Deary me. - 27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM 1774 Views
By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates? - 27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM 1530 Views
Not at all. - 27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM 1672 Views
Okay, I'm cool with that. - 27/01/2010 05:44:54 PM 1659 Views
Thank you. - 27/01/2010 05:48:05 PM 2225 Views
Please ban me, then. - 27/01/2010 06:44:55 PM 1489 Views
Nods - 18/02/2010 05:06:44 PM 1990 Views
Oh man, I love this thread. *NM* - 28/01/2010 01:17:58 AM 794 Views
On the nature of the "Book Club" - 28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM 1437 Views
Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions? - 28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM 1694 Views
Yes, shorter would be good. - 28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM 1490 Views
Oh i'm not complaining - 28/01/2010 10:33:48 PM 1532 Views
Sure sounded like it. - 28/01/2010 10:38:27 PM 1557 Views
No for reals, shorter is good. - 29/01/2010 01:08:26 AM 1549 Views
Absolutely. - 29/01/2010 03:33:15 AM 1501 Views
Agreed - 29/01/2010 11:26:34 AM 1539 Views
Well, you should have known better! - 29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM 1538 Views
I do. - 29/01/2010 08:31:30 PM 1522 Views
Thought you did - 29/01/2010 08:38:39 PM 1503 Views
- 29/01/2010 08:51:42 PM 1536 Views
All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED. *NM* - 29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM 774 Views
That is the other one that I am considering. *NM* - 29/01/2010 03:32:02 AM 803 Views
I'll re-read Zhivago or Master if either is chosen - 29/01/2010 05:26:02 AM 1489 Views
Talk to me Ghavrel. - 30/01/2010 12:09:24 AM 1450 Views
Well, I haven't finished it yet. - 30/01/2010 02:21:08 AM 1516 Views
Re: On the nature of the "Book Club" - 29/01/2010 12:33:03 PM 1462 Views
I didn't read it for the Book Club - 29/01/2010 12:40:22 AM 1517 Views
Well I'm late to the party - 29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM 1517 Views
No, you're early - 01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM 1384 Views
I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM* - 03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM 837 Views
A few comments - 04/02/2010 06:39:18 AM 1802 Views
If I kept you from participating, that's your fault. - 04/02/2010 01:01:46 PM 1454 Views
An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience? - 29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM 1522 Views
Sure. - 01/02/2010 03:23:59 PM 1504 Views

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