Either my mind moves much faster than ya'lls, or ya'll are deliberately missing the point.
Joel Send a noteboard - 16/11/2010 12:05:28 AM
My bet is firmly on the latter, just for the record.
No non sequiturs, I gave you examples of why language matters (ESPECIALLY when dealing with law and/or government).
1) If you don't make sure people say what they mean and mean what they say you could end up putting your worst nightmare in power because you THINK you agree with him.
2) In a nation where half the Bill of Rights is effectively a dead letter, you should probably be careful to avoid even the appearance of treason.
Of course, if you're more interested in shaking your fist at The Man than actually accomplishing anything it probably doesn't matter anyway.
Then I am sorry as well.
Subversion has the connotation of treason because so many people associate them that dictionaries make note of it; intelligence agencies et alia have routinely used the term that way for decades whether you and I like it or not. Who's stating opinion as fact here again...?
I actually oppose substituting connotation for definition, and strongly, but I'm not willing to trade constructive political reform and enfranchisement for a trip to Gitmo just to carry the prescriptivist banner. It's odd how often people from left, right and center tell me they love our country in the same breath as telling me how much they hate anything to do with running it. If you really want to subvert "The System" rather than simply reform parts of it then, no, I'm afraid we aren't allies, because I still believe in things like free elections that are very much part of the system. It has merits and failings, and we should remove the latter, but we should also preserve the former, and subverting "the system" precludes the latter. It precludes most constructive action, in fact, because it results in anarchy.
Meh. Wasting time I don't have to spare here. At least the anarchists and Tea Party agree on something....
No non sequiturs, I gave you examples of why language matters (ESPECIALLY when dealing with law and/or government).
1) If you don't make sure people say what they mean and mean what they say you could end up putting your worst nightmare in power because you THINK you agree with him.
2) In a nation where half the Bill of Rights is effectively a dead letter, you should probably be careful to avoid even the appearance of treason.
Of course, if you're more interested in shaking your fist at The Man than actually accomplishing anything it probably doesn't matter anyway.
Sorry, that's all I saw.
Then I am sorry as well.

Subversion has the connotation of treason because you're only applying it against an established government, though it can have any number of other connotations, too, depending on what structure you wish to be subverted. As I noted, I do not want to "over throw" a government or kill a sovereign leader. I want to subvert structures and systems. For instance, the US once had a structure in place that made it possible for only men to vote, until suffrage leaders subverted the system through the political process. Do you consider that treason?
There is a difference, and yet you seem to not see that. WHICH IS OKAY.
Penguin ghosts eat green apples, and then try to blow up parliament, so I do agree with you that subversion is bad. All hail the glorious system!
There is a difference, and yet you seem to not see that. WHICH IS OKAY.
Penguin ghosts eat green apples, and then try to blow up parliament, so I do agree with you that subversion is bad. All hail the glorious system!
Subversion has the connotation of treason because so many people associate them that dictionaries make note of it; intelligence agencies et alia have routinely used the term that way for decades whether you and I like it or not. Who's stating opinion as fact here again...?

I actually oppose substituting connotation for definition, and strongly, but I'm not willing to trade constructive political reform and enfranchisement for a trip to Gitmo just to carry the prescriptivist banner. It's odd how often people from left, right and center tell me they love our country in the same breath as telling me how much they hate anything to do with running it. If you really want to subvert "The System" rather than simply reform parts of it then, no, I'm afraid we aren't allies, because I still believe in things like free elections that are very much part of the system. It has merits and failings, and we should remove the latter, but we should also preserve the former, and subverting "the system" precludes the latter. It precludes most constructive action, in fact, because it results in anarchy.
Meh. Wasting time I don't have to spare here. At least the anarchists and Tea Party agree on something....

Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 16/11/2010 at 12:11:36 AM
Subversive Websites
13/11/2010 10:49:15 PM
- 1274 Views
"Intended or serving to subvert, especially intended to overthrow or undermine an established govt".
14/11/2010 01:44:14 AM
- 670 Views
Re: Gee, thanks dad! *NM*
14/11/2010 01:32:32 PM
- 474 Views
Well, I'm hoping I simply disagree with your diction rather than your motives.
14/11/2010 03:36:57 PM
- 739 Views
Re: No, you disagree with my motives.
15/11/2010 01:06:54 AM
- 732 Views
Jesus, who was executed for treason, is another relatively famous subversive. *NM*
15/11/2010 01:43:22 AM
- 403 Views
Re: I believe I've heard of him. Played centerfield for the Braves? *NM*
15/11/2010 03:38:17 AM
- 411 Views
The Founding Fathers of the US?
15/11/2010 10:18:32 AM
- 741 Views
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God".
15/11/2010 01:15:33 PM
- 782 Views
I'm sure bin Laden completely agrees
15/11/2010 01:32:53 PM
- 762 Views

When you give me an example of Jefferson murdering women and children that analogy will work.
15/11/2010 01:49:04 PM
- 686 Views

yes because Jefferson was a PARAGON of virtue himself
15/11/2010 02:17:58 PM
- 785 Views

So you are being completely subjective here? It is wrong, unless it is for a cause you support? *NM*
15/11/2010 02:30:37 PM
- 362 Views
No, it's a question of precedence.
15/11/2010 04:13:04 PM
- 646 Views
government as a social contract is an opinion.
15/11/2010 07:47:57 PM
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Government as social contract is accepted everywhere political power doesn't come out of a gun.
15/11/2010 09:26:19 PM
- 827 Views
His analogy works very well, and you are still being subjective.
15/11/2010 08:23:25 PM
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The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point.
15/11/2010 09:17:01 PM
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Re: The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point.
15/11/2010 10:52:40 PM
- 657 Views
I don't believe that at all.
16/11/2010 12:08:26 AM
- 557 Views
I'm sorry, at what point did he say he wished to overturn social contract philosophy?
16/11/2010 01:47:49 AM
- 648 Views
Heaven forbid anyone put words in peoples mouths.
16/11/2010 04:38:20 PM
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uhm, he did not say every rebel is a traitor.
16/11/2010 04:49:23 PM
- 605 Views
Re: uhm, which "he" are we speaking of here?
16/11/2010 04:58:12 PM
- 841 Views
dude, so your issue is that you're afraid the CIA is going to show up on your door?
16/11/2010 05:01:38 PM
- 788 Views
My issue is not inviting trouble just to impotently shake my fist at omnipotent but faceless evil.
16/11/2010 10:31:54 PM
- 5953 Views
They also don't get paid to waste their superiors time with silly conversations on silly websites *NM*
18/11/2010 10:56:36 AM
- 479 Views
The US had a guy tortured in Syria for a year because of silly converse on a silly website.
18/11/2010 04:03:14 PM
- 685 Views
No, its relevancy is difficult to grasp.
16/11/2010 07:19:11 AM
- 830 Views
Maybe I just have an unusual perspective.
16/11/2010 04:15:39 PM
- 801 Views
I didn't know they bombed a SCHOOL!!!
16/11/2010 04:31:24 PM
- 673 Views
Please. If there were any soldiers in the WTC on 911 it was coincidental.
16/11/2010 04:40:51 PM
- 701 Views
perhaps, but not all important targets are military targets.
16/11/2010 04:57:20 PM
- 850 Views
Not all important targets are LEGITIMATE targets either.
16/11/2010 05:06:11 PM
- 673 Views
I don't wish one, but I hate sidebars
16/11/2010 05:09:33 PM
- 718 Views

All about priorities; your call.
16/11/2010 10:33:53 PM
- 631 Views
No, NOW I know what's going on!
16/11/2010 04:36:04 PM
- 811 Views
Still doesn't work.
16/11/2010 04:50:58 PM
- 811 Views
Those last sentences are going way overboard.
16/11/2010 05:08:40 PM
- 680 Views
Terrorism is inexcusable and indefensible, but at least there's a LOGIC to it.
16/11/2010 05:21:15 PM
- 770 Views
First of all, your generalizations were misguided.
16/11/2010 05:40:55 PM
- 780 Views
Of course I disagree, but that's a different and older debate.
16/11/2010 11:10:23 PM
- 934 Views

mostly agree
16/11/2010 11:18:14 PM
- 628 Views
"Treason never prospers, what's the reason? If it prospers, none dare call it treason".
16/11/2010 11:30:55 PM
- 719 Views
I agree with the title - that seems to be a good quote to define when treason stops becoming treason
16/11/2010 11:39:37 PM
- 719 Views
. . . and now I'm thinking you're the one willfully misunderstanding.
16/11/2010 05:36:15 PM
- 709 Views
sorry
16/11/2010 11:24:44 PM
- 728 Views
Equally sorry if I've somehow done SOME Islamic TERRORISTS a disservice.
17/11/2010 12:44:34 AM
- 764 Views

"Subversion" has the connotation of treason, however wrongly.
15/11/2010 01:32:06 PM
- 753 Views
Re: Non-sequitur, non-sequitur, CAPS LOCK, opinion, CAPS LOCK.
15/11/2010 10:45:41 PM
- 584 Views
Either my mind moves much faster than ya'lls, or ya'll are deliberately missing the point.
16/11/2010 12:05:28 AM
- 770 Views
I am curious.
16/11/2010 01:10:52 AM
- 607 Views
Argggh, ya got me!
16/11/2010 05:11:41 PM
- 617 Views

the dictionary has -nia and -iums.
16/11/2010 05:16:32 PM
- 712 Views
I prefer "millennia" but recall someone telling me that's not technically right.
16/11/2010 05:32:34 PM
- 648 Views
well, in American English, they're apparantly both "correct" *NM*
16/11/2010 06:13:40 PM
- 460 Views
It is right. It's the one thing that's easy in Latin and Greek declensions.
16/11/2010 06:33:12 PM
- 683 Views
Do only neuter words end in -um?
16/11/2010 06:57:39 PM
- 738 Views
IIRC, the number of "n"s was the issue.
17/11/2010 01:06:24 AM
- 722 Views
Oh yes, because you're very much in danger!!!
16/11/2010 01:51:58 AM
- 584 Views
The Secret Service once tracked down a teenager who wrote a death threat on a bill he passed.
16/11/2010 05:30:18 PM
- 717 Views
All my subversive websites are religious.
15/11/2010 02:26:42 AM
- 668 Views
Re: I'm certainly interested.
15/11/2010 03:37:11 AM
- 694 Views
Well, okay then.
15/11/2010 04:23:35 AM
- 763 Views

Always liked Sojourners, though I've not been by there in an Age.
15/11/2010 01:43:51 PM
- 720 Views
Some stuff I think is pretty neat:
15/11/2010 07:24:41 PM
- 781 Views
Re: William Faulkner would be unhappy with my thread.
16/11/2010 08:29:42 PM
- 676 Views
My work here is done.
16/11/2010 08:34:22 PM
- 630 Views

Re: Yes, it's fairly obvious that you need to respond. *NM*
16/11/2010 11:40:10 PM
- 437 Views
I often wish I didn't.
17/11/2010 01:49:33 AM
- 598 Views