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"Treason never prospers, what's the reason? If it prospers, none dare call it treason". Joel Send a noteboard - 16/11/2010 11:30:55 PM
With regard to the rest, I think Snoop's comment on the American revolutionaries being traitors was largely tongue in cheek, and you have a point in saying he'd be inconsistent if he were serious. But the others also have a point in insisting that determining when a revolution becomes justified is a subjective matter. There isn't some set objective moment at which revolution becomes morally just.

They were traitors to the Crown - they did rebel against their king which does make them traitors. Of course they won which changes things a lot;)
But it was really just an illustration of the point that it is subjective, it isn't like saying murder it wrong but rather than saying murder is wrong unless you think they have a bad haircut or ugly shoes in which case it is noble and good.

Given when Mr. Pope lived, I don't think he was speaking of the Colonies. I could go on all day like this; probably the biggest reason the American colonists rebelled was because most of them came from Britain, a country where taxation without representation has been anathema since, what, the Thirteenth Century? :P

That's the thing though: They were rebels, but while all traitors are rebels, not all rebels are traitors. For all the crap I give ya'll about Charles I, Parliament WAS in the right on policy, had a point. Maybe not a point worth executing ones lawful sovereign, but then, Charles liked to paint them into corners, and I think we can agree that kicking the Stuarts out of Britain was one thing and KEEPING them out quite another. The Glorious Revolution is a lot harder to justify, however, especially to the extent to which it's been lauded from Day One. Deposing a monarch on the basis of what you SUSPECT his heir will do is pretty shady in my book.

The particulars of each rebellion are different, and thus sometimes they are justified, patriotic, and sometimes they are not. Tyrants and despots harm rather than help the nation, and removing them or extricating ones nation from their control is a public service, not treason. Determining whether a given rebellion falls into the category of patriotism or treason is often subjective, I'm not sure it can be otherwise, especially when it's a determination each citizen must make before deciding whose side to take. That the distinction exists isn't subjective at all, IMHO. It's not like saying murder is wrong except in certain cases; it's EXACTLY like saying murder is always wrong, but if someone breaks into your house and tries to kill you, killing THEM isn't murder, it's justifiable homicide.

I can't resist noting in passing that a memory that can't last eleven days is rather short indeed.... ;)
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This message last edited by Joel on 16/11/2010 at 11:35:54 PM
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Subversive Websites - 13/11/2010 10:49:15 PM 1494 Views
"Intended or serving to subvert, especially intended to overthrow or undermine an established govt". - 14/11/2010 01:44:14 AM 878 Views
Re: Gee, thanks dad! *NM* - 14/11/2010 01:32:32 PM 550 Views
Well, I'm hoping I simply disagree with your diction rather than your motives. - 14/11/2010 03:36:57 PM 933 Views
Re: No, you disagree with my motives. - 15/11/2010 01:06:54 AM 899 Views
The Founding Fathers of the US? - 15/11/2010 10:18:32 AM 951 Views
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God". - 15/11/2010 01:15:33 PM 980 Views
I'm sure bin Laden completely agrees - 15/11/2010 01:32:53 PM 951 Views
When you give me an example of Jefferson murdering women and children that analogy will work. - 15/11/2010 01:49:04 PM 907 Views
yes because Jefferson was a PARAGON of virtue himself - 15/11/2010 02:17:58 PM 1002 Views
I wasn't aware I'd made that statement. - 15/11/2010 02:25:27 PM 824 Views
nvm, I was going to argue but I have decided not to *NM* - 15/11/2010 07:46:42 PM 509 Views
So you are being completely subjective here? It is wrong, unless it is for a cause you support? *NM* - 15/11/2010 02:30:37 PM 429 Views
No, it's a question of precedence. - 15/11/2010 04:13:04 PM 828 Views
His analogy works very well, and you are still being subjective. - 15/11/2010 08:23:25 PM 1079 Views
The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point. - 15/11/2010 09:17:01 PM 1095 Views
Re: The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point. - 15/11/2010 10:52:40 PM 872 Views
I don't believe that at all. - 16/11/2010 12:08:26 AM 712 Views
Re: As I mentioned numerous times. - 16/11/2010 11:52:36 PM 976 Views
Re: As I mentioned numerous times. - 17/11/2010 01:34:29 AM 959 Views
No, its relevancy is difficult to grasp. - 16/11/2010 07:19:11 AM 1203 Views
Maybe I just have an unusual perspective. - 16/11/2010 04:15:39 PM 990 Views
I didn't know they bombed a SCHOOL!!! - 16/11/2010 04:31:24 PM 877 Views
Please. If there were any soldiers in the WTC on 911 it was coincidental. - 16/11/2010 04:40:51 PM 869 Views
perhaps, but not all important targets are military targets. - 16/11/2010 04:57:20 PM 1053 Views
Not all important targets are LEGITIMATE targets either. - 16/11/2010 05:06:11 PM 886 Views
I don't wish one, but I hate sidebars - 16/11/2010 05:09:33 PM 935 Views
All about priorities; your call. - 16/11/2010 10:33:53 PM 853 Views
That's so many hours of my life I'll never get back. - 16/11/2010 10:41:55 PM 863 Views
This your first time on the CMB? - 16/11/2010 11:18:03 PM 899 Views
No, NOW I know what's going on! - 16/11/2010 04:36:04 PM 1021 Views
Still doesn't work. - 16/11/2010 04:50:58 PM 1044 Views
Those last sentences are going way overboard. - 16/11/2010 05:08:40 PM 884 Views
Terrorism is inexcusable and indefensible, but at least there's a LOGIC to it. - 16/11/2010 05:21:15 PM 968 Views
First of all, your generalizations were misguided. - 16/11/2010 05:40:55 PM 993 Views
Of course I disagree, but that's a different and older debate. - 16/11/2010 11:10:23 PM 1156 Views
I will try to be brief. Try. - 16/11/2010 11:28:28 PM 970 Views
Heh. - 16/11/2010 11:55:40 PM 851 Views
mostly agree - 16/11/2010 11:18:14 PM 831 Views
"Treason never prospers, what's the reason? If it prospers, none dare call it treason". - 16/11/2010 11:30:55 PM 920 Views
. . . and now I'm thinking you're the one willfully misunderstanding. - 16/11/2010 05:36:15 PM 887 Views
Not willful, at least. - 17/11/2010 12:29:42 AM 838 Views
sorry - 16/11/2010 11:24:44 PM 943 Views
Well, you know what I was going on about, if that helps? *NM* - 16/11/2010 11:25:18 PM 507 Views
"Subversion" has the connotation of treason, however wrongly. - 15/11/2010 01:32:06 PM 952 Views
Re: Non-sequitur, non-sequitur, CAPS LOCK, opinion, CAPS LOCK. - 15/11/2010 10:45:41 PM 766 Views
Either my mind moves much faster than ya'lls, or ya'll are deliberately missing the point. - 16/11/2010 12:05:28 AM 978 Views
I am curious. - 16/11/2010 01:10:52 AM 828 Views
Argggh, ya got me! - 16/11/2010 05:11:41 PM 817 Views
the dictionary has -nia and -iums. - 16/11/2010 05:16:32 PM 913 Views
I prefer "millennia" but recall someone telling me that's not technically right. - 16/11/2010 05:32:34 PM 868 Views
well, in American English, they're apparantly both "correct" *NM* - 16/11/2010 06:13:40 PM 543 Views
In American English, almost anything is. - 17/11/2010 01:02:15 AM 932 Views
It is right. It's the one thing that's easy in Latin and Greek declensions. - 16/11/2010 06:33:12 PM 863 Views
You call then "neutral" over there? Interesting. *NM* - 16/11/2010 06:42:00 PM 535 Views
Neutral, neutrum, neuter, whatever. Details. *NM* - 16/11/2010 06:45:29 PM 488 Views
Do only neuter words end in -um? - 16/11/2010 06:57:39 PM 933 Views
Yes. I think so, anyway - been a good while since I had Latin. - 16/11/2010 07:12:09 PM 923 Views
Thanks. Maybe that's what I'm remembering. - 16/11/2010 07:17:05 PM 911 Views
IIRC, the number of "n"s was the issue. - 17/11/2010 01:06:24 AM 905 Views
Should definitely be two. *NM* - 17/11/2010 01:48:51 AM 448 Views
Ah, thanks. - 17/11/2010 02:08:08 AM 902 Views
Silly laptops.... - 16/11/2010 05:32:34 PM 1000 Views
- 16/11/2010 05:35:22 PM 813 Views
I'm horrible about using "conjugate" as a blanket term. - 17/11/2010 01:09:34 AM 966 Views
I'm definitely missing the point. - 16/11/2010 06:58:17 AM 905 Views
Well, hopefully we've cleared things up now. *MN* - 16/11/2010 05:30:46 PM 921 Views
I don't know if it qualifies as subversive... - 14/11/2010 02:47:34 AM 1027 Views
Re: That's not bad. - 14/11/2010 01:38:02 PM 925 Views
The Chap - 14/11/2010 01:58:27 PM 813 Views
Thanks. - 14/11/2010 03:04:49 PM 890 Views
All my subversive websites are religious. - 15/11/2010 02:26:42 AM 891 Views
Re: I'm certainly interested. - 15/11/2010 03:37:11 AM 895 Views
Well, okay then. - 15/11/2010 04:23:35 AM 957 Views
Some stuff I think is pretty neat: - 15/11/2010 07:24:41 PM 974 Views
Re: Noice, noice. - 15/11/2010 11:01:31 PM 907 Views
That first link is really good. - 15/11/2010 11:18:25 PM 1015 Views
Re: Ha! - 16/11/2010 11:55:42 PM 768 Views
Re: Also, I like your poems. *NM* - 17/11/2010 01:02:27 AM 480 Views
Re: Dude. - 20/11/2010 02:14:38 AM 974 Views
you mean besides this one? *NM* - 15/11/2010 07:55:03 PM 381 Views
Re: I AM NOT SUBVERTING NEBHEAD!! - 15/11/2010 11:02:10 PM 895 Views
Re: William Faulkner would be unhappy with my thread. - 16/11/2010 08:29:42 PM 886 Views
My work here is done. - 16/11/2010 08:34:22 PM 841 Views
Re: Yes, it's fairly obvious that you need to respond. *NM* - 16/11/2010 11:40:10 PM 501 Views
I often wish I didn't. - 17/11/2010 01:49:33 AM 794 Views
I'm calling you out on this one. - 18/11/2010 12:06:17 AM 852 Views
It's not perfect, but it's the lesser of many evils, IMHO. - 18/11/2010 01:12:43 AM 916 Views
You people with your words. - 16/11/2010 08:34:17 PM 982 Views
. - 16/11/2010 08:54:22 PM 766 Views
Re: I still say we should start a band. - 20/11/2010 02:42:48 AM 939 Views
Re: Man, that attack on Cameron is brutal. *NM* - 20/11/2010 02:47:12 AM 462 Views
Re: Awesome. - 16/11/2010 11:38:29 PM 891 Views

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