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Equally sorry if I've somehow done SOME Islamic TERRORISTS a disservice. Joel Send a noteboard - 17/11/2010 12:44:34 AM
Because Jefferson was speaking in terms of social contracts, and bin Laden speaks in terms of religious fanaticism.

If you offer up a quote then require people to read countless letters to explain the context, then I figure you need a better quote - as a stand alone quote, I'm pretty sure bin Laden fully supports it.

I thought it was common knowledge. Apparently TX isn't the only place where Jefferson's been removed from school discussions of Enlightenment thinkers. :P

Yeah, I'm sure bin Laden supports it. On the other hand, since he was living in a country that stoned people for being non-Muslim when he attacked the US, a country that had just months earlier made clear that the government of the nation where he lived was their own business, his case for American tyranny is pathetically weak. That's even if we decide it's OK to read Jefferson as a theocrat, though I certainly HOPE you know better than that.
Which explains the other problem with the analogy, that Jefferson and his fellows went after soldiers and terrorists go after civilians. The whole reason for terrorism is that heavily outgunned and outnumbered militants CAN'T win a pitched battle with soldiers, so they try to force the opposition to the bargaining table by eroding their will to fight, via terrorism. It's the problem with pretty much all Islamic terror groups: Even if I considered terrorism legitimate, it's goal is to force an otherwise unobtainable negotiated settlement, yet when Islamic terrorists are offered such a settlement (e.g. the Oslo Agreement) they'll reject for the sake of more murder. Because, at the end of the day, that's all they are: Mass murderers who try to legitimize and rationalize their hatred and murder on specious political grounds. They're WORSE than terrorists.

that's an ugly mess of a paragraph, even if one skips your crude lumping together of all Islamic terrorists which frankly smacks of islamaphobia - I'd think you were against bias against religions, not for it when it is other than Christians. You seem to have very strong views yet appear to have more than a very surface understanding of the conflict.

I believe you'll find that I'm just as quick to condemn Christians murdering innocent women and children. I tend to take the view of the rational mullahs who are in the majority: Their actions deny their professed faith. I have some fudamental and strong disagreements with Islamic doctrine, but that doesn't make me automatically suspicious of all Muslims. However, I don't think it's particularly bigoted to be suspicious of Islamic terrorists, and if Fred Phelps disturbs me less, it's only because he hasn't (to my knowledge) murdered anyone. I understand the Israel/Palestine conflict pretty well, but I looking at it closely is, once again, pointless and painful, so I concede I don't do it often. There's seldom much actual news there anyway, just "same :censored:, different day".... :[
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This message last edited by Joel on 17/11/2010 at 12:55:53 AM
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Subversive Websites - 13/11/2010 10:49:15 PM 1275 Views
"Intended or serving to subvert, especially intended to overthrow or undermine an established govt". - 14/11/2010 01:44:14 AM 671 Views
Re: Gee, thanks dad! *NM* - 14/11/2010 01:32:32 PM 474 Views
Well, I'm hoping I simply disagree with your diction rather than your motives. - 14/11/2010 03:36:57 PM 739 Views
Re: No, you disagree with my motives. - 15/11/2010 01:06:54 AM 733 Views
The Founding Fathers of the US? - 15/11/2010 10:18:32 AM 741 Views
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God". - 15/11/2010 01:15:33 PM 783 Views
I'm sure bin Laden completely agrees - 15/11/2010 01:32:53 PM 762 Views
When you give me an example of Jefferson murdering women and children that analogy will work. - 15/11/2010 01:49:04 PM 686 Views
yes because Jefferson was a PARAGON of virtue himself - 15/11/2010 02:17:58 PM 786 Views
I wasn't aware I'd made that statement. - 15/11/2010 02:25:27 PM 630 Views
nvm, I was going to argue but I have decided not to *NM* - 15/11/2010 07:46:42 PM 440 Views
So you are being completely subjective here? It is wrong, unless it is for a cause you support? *NM* - 15/11/2010 02:30:37 PM 362 Views
No, it's a question of precedence. - 15/11/2010 04:13:04 PM 647 Views
His analogy works very well, and you are still being subjective. - 15/11/2010 08:23:25 PM 881 Views
The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point. - 15/11/2010 09:17:01 PM 835 Views
Re: The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point. - 15/11/2010 10:52:40 PM 657 Views
I don't believe that at all. - 16/11/2010 12:08:26 AM 558 Views
Re: As I mentioned numerous times. - 16/11/2010 11:52:36 PM 745 Views
Re: As I mentioned numerous times. - 17/11/2010 01:34:29 AM 733 Views
No, its relevancy is difficult to grasp. - 16/11/2010 07:19:11 AM 831 Views
Maybe I just have an unusual perspective. - 16/11/2010 04:15:39 PM 802 Views
I didn't know they bombed a SCHOOL!!! - 16/11/2010 04:31:24 PM 675 Views
Please. If there were any soldiers in the WTC on 911 it was coincidental. - 16/11/2010 04:40:51 PM 702 Views
perhaps, but not all important targets are military targets. - 16/11/2010 04:57:20 PM 850 Views
Not all important targets are LEGITIMATE targets either. - 16/11/2010 05:06:11 PM 674 Views
I don't wish one, but I hate sidebars - 16/11/2010 05:09:33 PM 718 Views
All about priorities; your call. - 16/11/2010 10:33:53 PM 632 Views
That's so many hours of my life I'll never get back. - 16/11/2010 10:41:55 PM 730 Views
This your first time on the CMB? - 16/11/2010 11:18:03 PM 674 Views
No, NOW I know what's going on! - 16/11/2010 04:36:04 PM 812 Views
Still doesn't work. - 16/11/2010 04:50:58 PM 811 Views
Those last sentences are going way overboard. - 16/11/2010 05:08:40 PM 681 Views
Terrorism is inexcusable and indefensible, but at least there's a LOGIC to it. - 16/11/2010 05:21:15 PM 771 Views
First of all, your generalizations were misguided. - 16/11/2010 05:40:55 PM 780 Views
Of course I disagree, but that's a different and older debate. - 16/11/2010 11:10:23 PM 935 Views
I will try to be brief. Try. - 16/11/2010 11:28:28 PM 735 Views
Heh. - 16/11/2010 11:55:40 PM 689 Views
mostly agree - 16/11/2010 11:18:14 PM 628 Views
. . . and now I'm thinking you're the one willfully misunderstanding. - 16/11/2010 05:36:15 PM 711 Views
Not willful, at least. - 17/11/2010 12:29:42 AM 679 Views
sorry - 16/11/2010 11:24:44 PM 729 Views
Equally sorry if I've somehow done SOME Islamic TERRORISTS a disservice. - 17/11/2010 12:44:34 AM 765 Views
Well, you know what I was going on about, if that helps? *NM* - 16/11/2010 11:25:18 PM 421 Views
"Subversion" has the connotation of treason, however wrongly. - 15/11/2010 01:32:06 PM 753 Views
Re: Non-sequitur, non-sequitur, CAPS LOCK, opinion, CAPS LOCK. - 15/11/2010 10:45:41 PM 585 Views
Either my mind moves much faster than ya'lls, or ya'll are deliberately missing the point. - 16/11/2010 12:05:28 AM 771 Views
I am curious. - 16/11/2010 01:10:52 AM 608 Views
Argggh, ya got me! - 16/11/2010 05:11:41 PM 617 Views
the dictionary has -nia and -iums. - 16/11/2010 05:16:32 PM 713 Views
I prefer "millennia" but recall someone telling me that's not technically right. - 16/11/2010 05:32:34 PM 649 Views
well, in American English, they're apparantly both "correct" *NM* - 16/11/2010 06:13:40 PM 460 Views
In American English, almost anything is. - 17/11/2010 01:02:15 AM 759 Views
It is right. It's the one thing that's easy in Latin and Greek declensions. - 16/11/2010 06:33:12 PM 683 Views
You call then "neutral" over there? Interesting. *NM* - 16/11/2010 06:42:00 PM 457 Views
Neutral, neutrum, neuter, whatever. Details. *NM* - 16/11/2010 06:45:29 PM 409 Views
Do only neuter words end in -um? - 16/11/2010 06:57:39 PM 739 Views
Yes. I think so, anyway - been a good while since I had Latin. - 16/11/2010 07:12:09 PM 722 Views
Thanks. Maybe that's what I'm remembering. - 16/11/2010 07:17:05 PM 697 Views
IIRC, the number of "n"s was the issue. - 17/11/2010 01:06:24 AM 724 Views
Should definitely be two. *NM* - 17/11/2010 01:48:51 AM 374 Views
Ah, thanks. - 17/11/2010 02:08:08 AM 719 Views
Silly laptops.... - 16/11/2010 05:32:34 PM 809 Views
- 16/11/2010 05:35:22 PM 642 Views
I'm horrible about using "conjugate" as a blanket term. - 17/11/2010 01:09:34 AM 763 Views
I'm definitely missing the point. - 16/11/2010 06:58:17 AM 735 Views
Well, hopefully we've cleared things up now. *MN* - 16/11/2010 05:30:46 PM 745 Views
I don't know if it qualifies as subversive... - 14/11/2010 02:47:34 AM 850 Views
Re: That's not bad. - 14/11/2010 01:38:02 PM 712 Views
The Chap - 14/11/2010 01:58:27 PM 615 Views
Thanks. - 14/11/2010 03:04:49 PM 713 Views
All my subversive websites are religious. - 15/11/2010 02:26:42 AM 668 Views
Re: I'm certainly interested. - 15/11/2010 03:37:11 AM 694 Views
Well, okay then. - 15/11/2010 04:23:35 AM 765 Views
Some stuff I think is pretty neat: - 15/11/2010 07:24:41 PM 781 Views
Re: Noice, noice. - 15/11/2010 11:01:31 PM 715 Views
That first link is really good. - 15/11/2010 11:18:25 PM 808 Views
Re: Ha! - 16/11/2010 11:55:42 PM 614 Views
Re: Also, I like your poems. *NM* - 17/11/2010 01:02:27 AM 402 Views
Re: Dude. - 20/11/2010 02:14:38 AM 764 Views
you mean besides this one? *NM* - 15/11/2010 07:55:03 PM 308 Views
Re: I AM NOT SUBVERTING NEBHEAD!! - 15/11/2010 11:02:10 PM 714 Views
Re: William Faulkner would be unhappy with my thread. - 16/11/2010 08:29:42 PM 676 Views
My work here is done. - 16/11/2010 08:34:22 PM 630 Views
Re: Yes, it's fairly obvious that you need to respond. *NM* - 16/11/2010 11:40:10 PM 437 Views
I often wish I didn't. - 17/11/2010 01:49:33 AM 600 Views
I'm calling you out on this one. - 18/11/2010 12:06:17 AM 668 Views
It's not perfect, but it's the lesser of many evils, IMHO. - 18/11/2010 01:12:43 AM 701 Views
You people with your words. - 16/11/2010 08:34:17 PM 805 Views
. - 16/11/2010 08:54:22 PM 588 Views
Re: I still say we should start a band. - 20/11/2010 02:42:48 AM 721 Views
Re: Man, that attack on Cameron is brutal. *NM* - 20/11/2010 02:47:12 AM 386 Views
Re: Awesome. - 16/11/2010 11:38:29 PM 723 Views

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