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This is very frustrating. Nate Send a noteboard - 20/09/2011 07:05:48 PM
They are simply stating that it would take a major event to get the American people to agree to a war. That is nothing more a simple observation of fact and proves nothing more than the fact the understood political reality.

also I do love how support of a law signed by Clinton is evidence that they were planning to attack Iraq. Logic and reason cannot overcome firm conviction.


You keep citing logic, so let's see if you can follow along.

A) People who will in the future become influental members of the Bush administration specifically advocate occupying Iraq in published documents. It's not just support for Clinton's law. They specifically advocated deposing Hussein and occupying Iraq, having a substantial military presence there in order to counter Iran. Do you deny that this paragraph is true? Please answer.

B) Once those people are in the Bush administration, 9/11 happens without their involvement. The administration then begins to plan for an occupation of Iraq. Do you deny that this paragraph is true? Please answer.

C) Why do you think it's delusional to believe that A and B are connected? It is a straight progression. Group A advocates Action A. Group A gains positions of influence and power. Action A is then pursued and achieved. And somehow you think ... what? You think that Group A didn't plan to pursue Action A? Even though their own publications state that they wanted to pursue it?

I'm not even talking about their motivations or whether they were right or wrong or anything, and I haven't once said that Bush himself had these goals in mind. I'm saying that the people who became part of the administration wanted to occupy Iraq, and once they got into power, Iraq was occupied.

Do you really think those two things are not connected? Do you think those former PNAC members simply forgot about their goal of occupying Iraq when they came to power? And then coincidentally came to the conclusion that occupying Iraq was a good plan for completely different reasons than the ones they stated a few years earlier? And you accuse me of ignoring logic and reason?
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We really need to have Logic as a course in high schools. Tom - 20/09/2011 06:50:36 AM 1349 Views
Logic classes would be good in schools. Timthetrolloc - 20/09/2011 10:23:56 AM 896 Views
Ugh. Ghavrel - 20/09/2011 11:30:59 AM 924 Views
Re: Ugh. Timthetrolloc - 21/09/2011 12:03:31 AM 848 Views
Something tells me that no matter who answered your questions you wouldn't believe anyway. everynametaken - 21/09/2011 02:16:52 AM 846 Views
this is a controlled demolition Timthetrolloc - 21/09/2011 12:20:09 AM 964 Views
That is an incredibly stupid argument. Tom - 21/09/2011 01:12:38 AM 906 Views
I've seen controlled demolitions in person. They happen in the opposite order of the WTC collapses. Ghavrel - 21/09/2011 03:54:35 AM 921 Views
Asking questions is never wrong. ironclad - 20/09/2011 12:22:22 PM 806 Views
Re: Asking questions is never wrong. Timthetrolloc - 20/09/2011 11:57:04 PM 966 Views
Agreed Camilla - 20/09/2011 01:09:40 PM 851 Views
I've long advocated this for the reasons Tom states as well as others. Joel - 21/09/2011 06:49:28 AM 792 Views
I don't know if the Internet is degrading skills, or just giving stupid people a voice beetnemesis - 20/09/2011 02:33:24 PM 923 Views
There is compelling evidence that 9/11 was not what it seemed Dark Knight - 20/09/2011 03:06:58 PM 904 Views
No, there is not. Tom - 20/09/2011 03:19:43 PM 999 Views
Well, the circumstances were odd at least Dark Knight - 20/09/2011 03:26:40 PM 873 Views
As far as conspiracies go ... Nate - 20/09/2011 03:36:35 PM 977 Views
what would be the motive for the US doing something that stupid? random thoughts - 20/09/2011 04:40:31 PM 795 Views
I'm not sure you got my gist. Nate - 20/09/2011 04:46:28 PM 837 Views
I don't think there is any evidience that Bush wanted to attack Iraq before 9-11 random thoughts - 20/09/2011 05:21:09 PM 851 Views
Um. Well, sure, that would be true. If you ignored all the evidence. Nate - 20/09/2011 05:45:23 PM 915 Views
Well if you had argued that some Bush advisers wanted to attack Iraq I would have agreed random thoughts - 20/09/2011 06:35:07 PM 893 Views
But that's what I DID argue. Nate - 20/09/2011 06:47:17 PM 871 Views
sorry but you need to be more precise in your terms random thoughts - 21/09/2011 02:37:36 PM 908 Views
I've always seen them as separate. Nate - 21/09/2011 03:33:14 PM 740 Views
and that is why I decided to drop it random thoughts - 21/09/2011 04:07:02 PM 900 Views
Heh. Nate - 21/09/2011 04:15:34 PM 840 Views
And the explicit statement of a Bush Cabinet member. Joel - 21/09/2011 06:59:47 AM 964 Views
I'm still annoyed. Nate - 21/09/2011 01:58:38 PM 778 Views
I stopped responfding when suddenly realized I didn't want to be in a Bush Iraq war debate random thoughts - 21/09/2011 02:53:29 PM 783 Views
Admitting error is a sign of weakness; Don Draper said so. Joel - 21/09/2011 05:37:31 PM 817 Views
and I pointed that it was was just continuin gthe Clinton policy random thoughts - 21/09/2011 02:30:13 PM 865 Views
Even if that were true, it would still be flip flopping on a central Bush platform plank. Joel - 21/09/2011 05:45:10 PM 897 Views
In addition: Nate - 20/09/2011 05:57:33 PM 974 Views
sorry but that is nothing more than a simple statement of fact random thoughts - 20/09/2011 06:40:51 PM 920 Views
This is very frustrating. Nate - 20/09/2011 07:05:48 PM 870 Views
For the war on terror? Dark Knight - 20/09/2011 04:49:12 PM 912 Views
And what was the war on terror supposed to accomplish? random thoughts - 20/09/2011 05:12:11 PM 860 Views
That contradicts the evidence. Tom - 20/09/2011 06:15:48 PM 886 Views
Excuse me? Macharius - 20/09/2011 08:22:21 PM 948 Views
Huh? Dark Knight - 20/09/2011 08:57:14 PM 921 Views
the problem with any other theory is the make no sense random thoughts - 20/09/2011 04:36:02 PM 843 Views
Contemplate this.... Jeordam - 20/09/2011 04:27:52 PM 867 Views
You just did not go Star Trek on me Dark Knight - 20/09/2011 04:44:28 PM 885 Views
And how did you know... Jeordam - 20/09/2011 05:17:10 PM 966 Views
Re: And how did you know... Timthetrolloc - 21/09/2011 12:16:26 AM 961 Views
You should watch the pilot episode of the X-Files spin-off series The Lone Gunmen. TaskmasterJack - 20/09/2011 08:19:15 PM 917 Views
humans tend to be very bad at critical thinking random thoughts - 20/09/2011 04:58:43 PM 822 Views
Won't help Praziquantel - 20/09/2011 08:15:36 PM 896 Views
Make 'em all take debate. nossy - 20/09/2011 08:23:37 PM 842 Views
Would madam like a cane? Elaine - 20/09/2011 09:19:53 PM 976 Views
Maybe a walker with tennis balls on the bottom. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 20/09/2011 10:33:39 PM 405 Views
Do you think it would help? aerocontrols - 21/09/2011 12:09:42 AM 842 Views
Re: We really need to have Logic as a course in high schools. Timthetrolloc - 21/09/2011 12:10:08 AM 866 Views
Yeah, and the 100,000 pounds of sudden extra weight slammed into the towers at 400 mph...? Tom - 21/09/2011 01:05:18 AM 860 Views
Not actually the best example Isaac - 21/09/2011 01:56:03 AM 834 Views
what about the hole it cut into the frame of the building? random thoughts - 21/09/2011 03:23:07 AM 869 Views
Wouldn't make much difference Isaac - 21/09/2011 04:08:27 AM 864 Views
OK thanks *NM* random thoughts - 21/09/2011 02:55:52 PM 452 Views
The fireproofing was scraped off the steel by the crash, so the beams melted. Aeryn - 21/09/2011 07:35:08 PM 1057 Views
Re: Yeah, and the 100,000 pounds of sudden extra weight slammed into the towers at 400 mph...? Timthetrolloc - 21/09/2011 03:02:19 AM 892 Views
But how else would they fall down? Aeryn - 21/09/2011 07:42:27 PM 755 Views
You would force Euler on to the masses? Two Wongs - 21/09/2011 03:21:40 PM 914 Views
You could still argue. Vivien - 21/09/2011 04:06:51 PM 789 Views
I didn't mean to imply that it is no fun to argue with a like-minded person Two Wongs - 21/09/2011 04:15:47 PM 813 Views
Eh, nobody uses pure logic all of the time anyway. Vivien - 21/09/2011 10:43:51 PM 879 Views
Or they could just do more math. Cold, hard, beautiful math. Vivien - 21/09/2011 04:01:05 PM 795 Views
I love geometry proofs. Nate - 21/09/2011 04:10:57 PM 935 Views
Me too <3 proofs! *NM* LaSombra - 21/09/2011 07:55:38 PM 435 Views
For pure enjoyment, here's a non math version. Vivien - 21/09/2011 10:10:40 PM 834 Views
+1 *NM* Isaac - 21/09/2011 07:59:57 PM 379 Views
Now we are talking... Everyone can benefit from some basic Euclid. jh - 21/09/2011 08:32:17 PM 1060 Views
Ha. Ha. Vivien - 21/09/2011 09:56:38 PM 857 Views
As a follower of Cthulhu, I strongly disagree. Tom - 21/09/2011 11:13:55 PM 1032 Views
I really and truly appreciate your love of pure math for math's sake, but... Tom - 21/09/2011 11:10:03 PM 830 Views
Well, it requires a lot more science to really dispute things than HS can give someone Isaac - 21/09/2011 11:28:29 PM 859 Views
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