Active Users:167 Time:17/05/2024 07:00:16 AM
What is the oldest extant text of or reference to it? Joel Send a noteboard - 20/09/2012 11:11:03 PM
You chose...poorly.

The Gospel of Judas is certainly a later Gnostic work, but the Gospel of Thomas is one of the more compelling non-canonical works from the early Christian period. Even those who think it was written later than the canonical Gospels do not place it after 150 AD. Furthermore, although there are hints of Gnosticism in it, it is not properly a Gnostic work per se.

I will not pretend to have exhaustively studied it, but have not seen even references reliably dated beyond the late Second Century AD. Skimming the Wikipedia article on the subject turned up the following references:

Nicholas Perrin, "Thomas: The Fifth Gospel?," Journal of The Evangelical Theological Society 49 (March 2006): 66–80

Nicholas Perrin. Thomas and Tatian: The Relationship Between the Gospel of Thomas and the Diatessaron (Academia Biblica, 5). Koninklijke Brill NV, Leiden, The Netherlands: Brill Academic Publishers, 2003.

The first argues that, based on the second suggests, the "Gospel" of Thomas may have been recorded as late as 172 AD. If you have some ironclad proof it was around before then I would love to see it (as, no doubt, would Perrin.)

Furthermore, your argument against Gnosticism is a specious one that defies all of the rules of logic. I am not defending it, but your indictment of it is based on a reasoning that is beyond any attempt to make any sense of. Essentially, you say that the first reference to Gnostics in Paulinian writings is criticism. That would be like saying, in a world where Mormonism became dominant, "We know that Catholicism is wrong because the first reference to it in Mormon writings is to denounce it."

On the contrary, had Mormonism been around for a century and a half, perhaps more, before suddenly taking time to denounce previously unattested Roman Catholicism, I think that would be a valid objection to the latter. If we had some positive or even nocommital references to it from the same date, especially if they referred to it as an earlier work, that would be different. Instead, it was not even mentioned until the Christian Church had been around for a century, and likely much more, and all we have then is a categorical denunciation. It is more like if the Book of Mormon and related documents had never been written, but someone came along 20 years ago to say the whole thing was a bunch of hooey: Would that validate Joseph Smiths claims?

The reasons why Gnosticism is an unattractive candidate for metaphysical truth lies in its own internal contradictions.

Yeah, those, too, certainly, but not only those. Gnosticism was just the Unitarianism of its day, recasting any and all divine revelation as metaphysical allegory. Trying to backdate their sacred texts to be products of existing religions, however, does kind of clinch things.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
So, about this silly "Jesus' wife" story making the rounds... - 19/09/2012 10:55:55 PM 1174 Views
That's right! Jesus' position on marriage was "One man, no woman." *NM* - 19/09/2012 11:05:55 PM 517 Views
What is the context? The canonical bible says Christ has a wife: The Church. - 19/09/2012 11:25:19 PM 796 Views
Oh please...don't confuse "wife" with "bride" - 19/09/2012 11:35:09 PM 762 Views
What word do the Prophets use for Israels relationship to God? - 20/09/2012 12:38:20 AM 770 Views
BRIDE - 20/09/2012 03:39:30 PM 748 Views
Two things why it is important - 20/09/2012 04:24:37 AM 745 Views
There is a very good reason no one dismissed the illegitmate gospels as illegitimate until 180 AD: - 20/09/2012 09:15:05 PM 681 Views
The Gospel of Thomas was written before 180 AD. - 20/09/2012 09:33:44 PM 694 Views
What is the oldest extant text of or reference to it? - 20/09/2012 11:11:03 PM 767 Views
The Oxyrhynchus fragments were dated to c. 200 AD, and they are copies - 21/09/2012 12:18:33 AM 664 Views
I would buy 200 AD, of course. - 21/09/2012 12:58:32 AM 745 Views
It's not about "buying" it - it's essentially proven at that point. - 21/09/2012 03:26:50 AM 707 Views
Yes; all I meant was that I never disputed a date around 200 AD. - 22/09/2012 12:25:41 AM 722 Views
I don't think any of the gospels were written by their purported authors. - 22/09/2012 03:36:32 AM 663 Views
Not even Mark or Luke? - 22/09/2012 01:21:24 PM 682 Views
Well, but everyone knew Peter didn't speak Greek - 22/09/2012 09:46:57 PM 638 Views
What about those who postulate a mid-to-late 1st century composition? - 22/09/2012 02:21:18 AM 779 Views
Elaine Pagels ceased to be an impartial academic a long time ago. - 22/09/2012 03:41:41 AM 713 Views
Suspected as much, but wanted to see if you thought so as well - 22/09/2012 03:47:05 AM 855 Views
Let's not get started on Funk - 22/09/2012 09:48:05 PM 659 Views
So true - 22/09/2012 10:23:08 PM 764 Views
don't these people have anything better to do? - 20/09/2012 11:39:35 PM 691 Views
Clearly not. - 22/09/2012 12:27:29 AM 603 Views
then i'll escape this thread before anyone twigs - 22/09/2012 08:12:37 PM 767 Views
Too late, I have already twigged, branched and treed. - 22/09/2012 08:58:39 PM 749 Views
I know! - 21/09/2012 06:48:33 AM 870 Views
See, Tom, you made a mistake. - 22/09/2012 10:25:22 AM 730 Views

Reply to Message