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I would buy 200 AD, of course. Joel Send a noteboard - 21/09/2012 12:58:32 AM
So we know that it existed c. 200 AD from physical evidence. According to the official Brill publication of the Nag Hammadi corpus (which is probably the most rigorous treatment of the subject), Hippolytus and Origen cite it, and Mani used it in developing his religion. Tatian probably used it as a source in the Diatessaron, and Clement of Alexandria quoted Saying 2 from the Gospel of Thomas in the Stromata (5.14.96).

The Diatessaron was dated to 160-170 AD, and the Stromata was a bit later. But it's almost impossible they would cite things that "just came out".

Unless Nicholas Perrin is a total hack or crackpot (and the sanity of people named "Perrin" is notoriously open to question around here... ;)) his contention the Diatessaron is a source, rather than product, of the "Gospel" of Thomas indicates the case for the reverse is less than air-tight. Origens citation was the one I had in mind, but he was not (quite) even born in 180 AD, which brings us back to that date. It is much the same with Mani and Hippolytus, and if the Thomas "Gospel" were written in 180 AD Clement would have about 20 years to consider it before penning the Stromata.

So the absolute earliest reference to it would be the Diatessaron IF the "Gospel" of Thomas was among its sources rather than the reverse. Call it 180±20 AD?
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So, about this silly "Jesus' wife" story making the rounds... Tom - 19/09/2012 10:55:55 PM 1175 Views
That's right! Jesus' position on marriage was "One man, no woman." *NM* TaskmasterJack - 19/09/2012 11:05:55 PM 518 Views
What is the context? The canonical bible says Christ has a wife: The Church. Joel - 19/09/2012 11:25:19 PM 796 Views
Oh please...don't confuse "wife" with "bride" Tom - 19/09/2012 11:35:09 PM 762 Views
What word do the Prophets use for Israels relationship to God? Joel - 20/09/2012 12:38:20 AM 770 Views
BRIDE Tom - 20/09/2012 03:39:30 PM 748 Views
I love your last two sentences. They're a really nice description. *NM* Rebekah - 20/09/2012 07:58:19 PM 372 Views
That makes sense for an eternal God, but sounds like a wife who remains a bride. Joel - 20/09/2012 08:56:07 PM 824 Views
It's "bride" in the Old Testament as well. Tom - 20/09/2012 09:48:37 PM 760 Views
The distinction is important for preserving the newlywed condition, but not for this fragment. Joel - 20/09/2012 11:21:52 PM 810 Views
No, the fragment is either Gnostic or a forgery. Tom - 20/09/2012 11:28:53 PM 754 Views
Fair enough; for my money it could easily be both. Joel - 21/09/2012 12:10:57 AM 707 Views
Two things why it is important Roland00 - 20/09/2012 04:24:37 AM 745 Views
Did someone hit you over the head? "Two things why it is important"? Really? Tom - 20/09/2012 03:50:02 PM 796 Views
Something I forgot to ask you about last night: What is your take on Daniels messianic prophecy? Joel - 20/09/2012 09:21:32 PM 740 Views
I don't get that at all. "And will be no more", or "And will have nothing" is better. Tom - 20/09/2012 10:13:20 PM 694 Views
It is the King James text, which I have never heard anyone call heretical. Joel - 20/09/2012 11:15:54 PM 775 Views
The King James Bible is aesthetically pleasing but a bad translation. Tom - 21/09/2012 12:03:00 AM 709 Views
I like the NKJV because it tries to include all ambiguities. Joel - 21/09/2012 12:47:38 AM 772 Views
It says nothing about the Septuagint variant reading, though. Tom - 21/09/2012 03:35:51 AM 713 Views
Hmm, you are right; uncharacteristically disappointing. Joel - 22/09/2012 12:16:51 AM 827 Views
There is a very good reason no one dismissed the illegitmate gospels as illegitimate until 180 AD: Joel - 20/09/2012 09:15:05 PM 681 Views
The Gospel of Thomas was written before 180 AD. Tom - 20/09/2012 09:33:44 PM 694 Views
What is the oldest extant text of or reference to it? Joel - 20/09/2012 11:11:03 PM 767 Views
The Oxyrhynchus fragments were dated to c. 200 AD, and they are copies Tom - 21/09/2012 12:18:33 AM 664 Views
I would buy 200 AD, of course. Joel - 21/09/2012 12:58:32 AM 746 Views
It's not about "buying" it - it's essentially proven at that point. Tom - 21/09/2012 03:26:50 AM 707 Views
Yes; all I meant was that I never disputed a date around 200 AD. Joel - 22/09/2012 12:25:41 AM 722 Views
I don't think any of the gospels were written by their purported authors. Tom - 22/09/2012 03:36:32 AM 663 Views
Not even Mark or Luke? Joel - 22/09/2012 01:21:24 PM 683 Views
Well, but everyone knew Peter didn't speak Greek Tom - 22/09/2012 09:46:57 PM 638 Views
True, but everyone also knew Paul spoke it fluently, and he would have been an ideal choice. Joel - 24/09/2012 06:20:22 AM 697 Views
Some people did "lie big". Tom - 24/09/2012 02:11:58 PM 729 Views
I forgot about (or possibly repressed memories of) the Gnostics "Gospel" of Peter. Joel - 24/09/2012 11:26:43 PM 792 Views
I'm not trying to defend Gnosticism doctrinally, but... Tom - 24/09/2012 11:51:40 PM 761 Views
I am not relying SOLELY (or chiefly) on popularity though. Joel - 25/09/2012 02:21:01 AM 718 Views
The Gnostic response would be: Tom - 25/09/2012 06:01:58 AM 660 Views
That just sounds like more conspiracy allegations based on desire rather than evidence. Joel - 25/09/2012 07:15:06 AM 814 Views
The issue of evidence for Gnosticism would make this thread unnecessarily long. Tom - 25/09/2012 07:28:22 PM 630 Views
This thread seems an ideal place, but OK. Joel - 26/09/2012 04:34:28 AM 776 Views
What about those who postulate a mid-to-late 1st century composition? Larry - 22/09/2012 02:21:18 AM 779 Views
Elaine Pagels ceased to be an impartial academic a long time ago. Tom - 22/09/2012 03:41:41 AM 713 Views
Suspected as much, but wanted to see if you thought so as well Larry - 22/09/2012 03:47:05 AM 855 Views
Let's not get started on Funk Tom - 22/09/2012 09:48:05 PM 659 Views
So true Larry - 22/09/2012 10:23:08 PM 764 Views
Bentley Layton at Yale is a noted scholar who did translations. Tom - 22/09/2012 10:47:05 PM 694 Views
don't these people have anything better to do? Yunalesca - 20/09/2012 11:39:35 PM 691 Views
Clearly not. Joel - 22/09/2012 12:27:29 AM 603 Views
then i'll escape this thread before anyone twigs Yunalesca - 22/09/2012 08:12:37 PM 767 Views
Too late, I have already twigged, branched and treed. Joel - 22/09/2012 08:58:39 PM 749 Views
I know! Camilla - 21/09/2012 06:48:33 AM 870 Views
See, Tom, you made a mistake. jh - 22/09/2012 10:25:22 AM 730 Views
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