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This thread seems an ideal place, but OK. Joel Send a noteboard - 26/09/2012 04:34:28 AM
There is plenty of evidence out there, in the canon itself, in other sources, in external evidence, that makes it more than a conspiracy theory. I am trying to get a massive number of things done today and don't have the time, and this thread is not the place, but I can recommend some books if you like.

If I am correct to presume you do not mean Gnostic apologetics, sure, that would be great. The canon often refers to "mysteries," but not in any deliberately opaque way; again, each such reference describes mysteries to the extent possible, neither stating nor implying the writer or anyone has any greater understanding than that presented in the text, and usually suggesting no better understanding is possible for man. The other sources and external evidence of which I am aware are all decades (if not a full century) after the canonical Gospels, making it hard to accept the premise their philosophy predates that the canonical Gospels express. I do at least try to remain objective, so if you have sources not vulnerable to those criticisms, please do share, with my thanks.
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So, about this silly "Jesus' wife" story making the rounds... Tom - 19/09/2012 10:55:55 PM 1331 Views
That's right! Jesus' position on marriage was "One man, no woman." *NM* TaskmasterJack - 19/09/2012 11:05:55 PM 663 Views
What is the context? The canonical bible says Christ has a wife: The Church. Joel - 19/09/2012 11:25:19 PM 970 Views
Oh please...don't confuse "wife" with "bride" Tom - 19/09/2012 11:35:09 PM 938 Views
What word do the Prophets use for Israels relationship to God? Joel - 20/09/2012 12:38:20 AM 919 Views
BRIDE Tom - 20/09/2012 03:39:30 PM 905 Views
I love your last two sentences. They're a really nice description. *NM* Rebekah - 20/09/2012 07:58:19 PM 446 Views
That makes sense for an eternal God, but sounds like a wife who remains a bride. Joel - 20/09/2012 08:56:07 PM 974 Views
It's "bride" in the Old Testament as well. Tom - 20/09/2012 09:48:37 PM 919 Views
The distinction is important for preserving the newlywed condition, but not for this fragment. Joel - 20/09/2012 11:21:52 PM 951 Views
No, the fragment is either Gnostic or a forgery. Tom - 20/09/2012 11:28:53 PM 903 Views
Fair enough; for my money it could easily be both. Joel - 21/09/2012 12:10:57 AM 850 Views
Two things why it is important Roland00 - 20/09/2012 04:24:37 AM 893 Views
Did someone hit you over the head? "Two things why it is important"? Really? Tom - 20/09/2012 03:50:02 PM 984 Views
Something I forgot to ask you about last night: What is your take on Daniels messianic prophecy? Joel - 20/09/2012 09:21:32 PM 891 Views
I don't get that at all. "And will be no more", or "And will have nothing" is better. Tom - 20/09/2012 10:13:20 PM 849 Views
It is the King James text, which I have never heard anyone call heretical. Joel - 20/09/2012 11:15:54 PM 931 Views
The King James Bible is aesthetically pleasing but a bad translation. Tom - 21/09/2012 12:03:00 AM 864 Views
I like the NKJV because it tries to include all ambiguities. Joel - 21/09/2012 12:47:38 AM 939 Views
It says nothing about the Septuagint variant reading, though. Tom - 21/09/2012 03:35:51 AM 868 Views
Hmm, you are right; uncharacteristically disappointing. Joel - 22/09/2012 12:16:51 AM 947 Views
There is a very good reason no one dismissed the illegitmate gospels as illegitimate until 180 AD: Joel - 20/09/2012 09:15:05 PM 857 Views
The Gospel of Thomas was written before 180 AD. Tom - 20/09/2012 09:33:44 PM 848 Views
What is the oldest extant text of or reference to it? Joel - 20/09/2012 11:11:03 PM 923 Views
The Oxyrhynchus fragments were dated to c. 200 AD, and they are copies Tom - 21/09/2012 12:18:33 AM 840 Views
I would buy 200 AD, of course. Joel - 21/09/2012 12:58:32 AM 904 Views
It's not about "buying" it - it's essentially proven at that point. Tom - 21/09/2012 03:26:50 AM 874 Views
Yes; all I meant was that I never disputed a date around 200 AD. Joel - 22/09/2012 12:25:41 AM 893 Views
I don't think any of the gospels were written by their purported authors. Tom - 22/09/2012 03:36:32 AM 804 Views
Not even Mark or Luke? Joel - 22/09/2012 01:21:24 PM 855 Views
Well, but everyone knew Peter didn't speak Greek Tom - 22/09/2012 09:46:57 PM 792 Views
True, but everyone also knew Paul spoke it fluently, and he would have been an ideal choice. Joel - 24/09/2012 06:20:22 AM 854 Views
Some people did "lie big". Tom - 24/09/2012 02:11:58 PM 879 Views
I forgot about (or possibly repressed memories of) the Gnostics "Gospel" of Peter. Joel - 24/09/2012 11:26:43 PM 960 Views
I'm not trying to defend Gnosticism doctrinally, but... Tom - 24/09/2012 11:51:40 PM 919 Views
I am not relying SOLELY (or chiefly) on popularity though. Joel - 25/09/2012 02:21:01 AM 900 Views
The Gnostic response would be: Tom - 25/09/2012 06:01:58 AM 820 Views
That just sounds like more conspiracy allegations based on desire rather than evidence. Joel - 25/09/2012 07:15:06 AM 971 Views
The issue of evidence for Gnosticism would make this thread unnecessarily long. Tom - 25/09/2012 07:28:22 PM 810 Views
This thread seems an ideal place, but OK. Joel - 26/09/2012 04:34:28 AM 941 Views
What about those who postulate a mid-to-late 1st century composition? Larry - 22/09/2012 02:21:18 AM 915 Views
Elaine Pagels ceased to be an impartial academic a long time ago. Tom - 22/09/2012 03:41:41 AM 874 Views
Suspected as much, but wanted to see if you thought so as well Larry - 22/09/2012 03:47:05 AM 1014 Views
Let's not get started on Funk Tom - 22/09/2012 09:48:05 PM 808 Views
So true Larry - 22/09/2012 10:23:08 PM 913 Views
Bentley Layton at Yale is a noted scholar who did translations. Tom - 22/09/2012 10:47:05 PM 850 Views
don't these people have anything better to do? Yunalesca - 20/09/2012 11:39:35 PM 912 Views
Clearly not. Joel - 22/09/2012 12:27:29 AM 750 Views
then i'll escape this thread before anyone twigs Yunalesca - 22/09/2012 08:12:37 PM 986 Views
Too late, I have already twigged, branched and treed. Joel - 22/09/2012 08:58:39 PM 894 Views
I know! Camilla - 21/09/2012 06:48:33 AM 1104 Views
See, Tom, you made a mistake. jh - 22/09/2012 10:25:22 AM 882 Views
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