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I am not relying SOLELY (or chiefly) on popularity though. Joel Send a noteboard - 25/09/2012 02:21:01 AM
From a strictly logical perspective, your arguments are circular. Pauline sources validated a gospel, therefore it is true. The gospel is true because it reaffirms what the people who recognized it believed.

The proponent of a Gnostic vision of Christianity will counter that, had Valentinus not lost the PR war inside Christianity (by having a message that was less popular but which could theoretically have been more correct and closer to the real teachings of Jesus), we would have plenty of Valentinian sources that would renounce, say, the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, as well as the writings of Eusebius, Irenaeus, and Tertullian, as "heretical". The "Orthodox Gnostic Church" would base its claim to orthodoxy on the fact that Valentinus was taught by Paul's disciple, Theudas.

The main thing I rely on is the Synoptic Gospels much earlier dating (which has added weight in light of the scholarly consensus they were not themselves original, but products of the even earlier lost Q text.) It was not just a PR war, after all; the Synoptic Gospels and Pauline school with which they are consistent were better established and more pervasive because they had been around longer. That is not in itself conclusive, no, but does give the Synoptic Gospels closer proximity to Christ Himself, and the closer they are to the Source the more unassailable they become.

So when hidden Gnostic gospels came along they naturally ran afoul of the established Church. Fans of heterodoxy as an end in itself consider that a badge of honor, but fighting a vast conspiracy loses its nobility if the conspiracy is just an empty allegation contrived to legitimize ones own agenda. Opposing a conspiracy revealed by a pattern of anti-Christian behavior and doctrine is one thing, but opposing the established Church simply because it disagrees with some novel personal warping of Christian doctrine is quite another. The Church did not reject Mormonism because it had something personal against Joseph Smith or was jealously guarding its temporal power, but because he made up a entire new doctrine out of wholecloth and tried to promote it as "real" Christianity.

Of course the early Church was consistent with the Synoptic and Johanine Gospels, for the very compelling reason they provided its best and earliest understanding of the Rock on which the Church was founded. Even by generous estimates they had already shaped Church doctrine for at least a generation before any Gnostic "Gospels" existed, and not as an overt Gnostic attempt to coopt Christianity as it was systematically doing with all other religions. The Church long and largely dependent on the former to the exclusion of the latter inevitably ACCEPTED the former to the exclusion of the latter, even if it did not formally do so until the end of the Fourth Century. That is not conclusive, but is corroborative.

It is a case of convention reflecting chronology and therefore increasing its significance, but the chronology and distinction are what I find most convincing. The Christianity of the Gospels is not another generic mystery religion, and was recorded in them well before the end of the First Century. In skimming Wikipedia articles on the subject I ran across a quote from a scholar noting that none of the canonical Gospels mentions the destruction of Herods Temple in 70 AD, despite several mentions of Christs prophecy it would be torn down until no stone stood upon another. Obviously any author would want to include clear fulfilment of explicit prophecy, and the canonical authors routinely did; omitting that one strongly suggests its fulfilment is absent because it had not yet occurred.

That places all the canonical Gospels at or before 70 AD, meaning they were accepted as, well, GOSPEL, decades (if not a century) before the Gnostic alternatives existed. That makes it very hard to accept any later writings not fully consistent with them and the early Church so tightly bound to them. The gnostic writings conflict with so many of the Church Fathers is, again, not conclusive, but underscores the conflict between gnostic texts and the canonical ones dating from a time and authors much closer to Christ Himself.
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So, about this silly "Jesus' wife" story making the rounds... - 19/09/2012 10:55:55 PM 1174 Views
That's right! Jesus' position on marriage was "One man, no woman." *NM* - 19/09/2012 11:05:55 PM 517 Views
What is the context? The canonical bible says Christ has a wife: The Church. - 19/09/2012 11:25:19 PM 795 Views
Oh please...don't confuse "wife" with "bride" - 19/09/2012 11:35:09 PM 762 Views
What word do the Prophets use for Israels relationship to God? - 20/09/2012 12:38:20 AM 769 Views
BRIDE - 20/09/2012 03:39:30 PM 747 Views
Two things why it is important - 20/09/2012 04:24:37 AM 745 Views
There is a very good reason no one dismissed the illegitmate gospels as illegitimate until 180 AD: - 20/09/2012 09:15:05 PM 681 Views
The Gospel of Thomas was written before 180 AD. - 20/09/2012 09:33:44 PM 693 Views
What is the oldest extant text of or reference to it? - 20/09/2012 11:11:03 PM 766 Views
The Oxyrhynchus fragments were dated to c. 200 AD, and they are copies - 21/09/2012 12:18:33 AM 664 Views
I would buy 200 AD, of course. - 21/09/2012 12:58:32 AM 745 Views
It's not about "buying" it - it's essentially proven at that point. - 21/09/2012 03:26:50 AM 707 Views
Yes; all I meant was that I never disputed a date around 200 AD. - 22/09/2012 12:25:41 AM 722 Views
I don't think any of the gospels were written by their purported authors. - 22/09/2012 03:36:32 AM 663 Views
Not even Mark or Luke? - 22/09/2012 01:21:24 PM 682 Views
Well, but everyone knew Peter didn't speak Greek - 22/09/2012 09:46:57 PM 638 Views
True, but everyone also knew Paul spoke it fluently, and he would have been an ideal choice. - 24/09/2012 06:20:22 AM 697 Views
Some people did "lie big". - 24/09/2012 02:11:58 PM 728 Views
I forgot about (or possibly repressed memories of) the Gnostics "Gospel" of Peter. - 24/09/2012 11:26:43 PM 792 Views
I'm not trying to defend Gnosticism doctrinally, but... - 24/09/2012 11:51:40 PM 760 Views
I am not relying SOLELY (or chiefly) on popularity though. - 25/09/2012 02:21:01 AM 718 Views
The Gnostic response would be: - 25/09/2012 06:01:58 AM 659 Views
What about those who postulate a mid-to-late 1st century composition? - 22/09/2012 02:21:18 AM 778 Views
Elaine Pagels ceased to be an impartial academic a long time ago. - 22/09/2012 03:41:41 AM 713 Views
Suspected as much, but wanted to see if you thought so as well - 22/09/2012 03:47:05 AM 855 Views
Let's not get started on Funk - 22/09/2012 09:48:05 PM 659 Views
So true - 22/09/2012 10:23:08 PM 764 Views
don't these people have anything better to do? - 20/09/2012 11:39:35 PM 690 Views
Clearly not. - 22/09/2012 12:27:29 AM 602 Views
then i'll escape this thread before anyone twigs - 22/09/2012 08:12:37 PM 767 Views
Too late, I have already twigged, branched and treed. - 22/09/2012 08:58:39 PM 748 Views
I know! - 21/09/2012 06:48:33 AM 870 Views
See, Tom, you made a mistake. - 22/09/2012 10:25:22 AM 730 Views

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