Active Users:193 Time:17/05/2024 12:22:27 PM
In this case my reading comprehension is more than adequate. Joel Send a noteboard - 24/11/2009 09:16:39 AM
I'm arguing against expensive, media circus, drawn out trials in the United States where criminal procedure violations can lead to sentences being overturned. Our soldiers did not use those procedures and evidence was collected in ways that domestic courts would not recognize, but military courts would.

Did you read all of becks other link here? They plan to admit they did it and then try to rationalize it; how can anyone think that will harm US? When they admit to the bombing in open court pretty much any chance of overturning the verdict on any basis will disappear. Not that there's much chance of that anyway, but the thing so often forgotten is that the reason verdicts get overturned on "technicalities" is usually that law enforcement and prosecutors were so casually cavalier in their investigation, arrest, detention, interrogation and/or prosecution of suspects that they ruined a perfectly good case by presuming them guilty until proven innocent.

Hence my citation of OJ: Yes, I'm unhappy he beat the murder rap, because I think he's guilty as homemade sin, but I'm just as unhappy LAPD and Marcia Clark largely beat the rap FOR him. They had DNA evidence; they mishandled and contaminated it with other DNA. They had a glove from the crime scene; they didn't bother recording it as evidence until long after the crime scene had ceased to be secure. They had an experienced and intelligent investigating officer; his own former colleagues testified he'd used racist and bigoted language in their presence. That's precisely what I DON'T want repeated here, but this whole "now that we've apprehended the criminals let's execute them and justify it later" attitude is just a redux of that. We can't overplay our hand, but the contract can still be defeated if we break enough rules to get the whole thing thrown out entirely.

As to the other, soldiers are tried in military courts and civilians in civilian ones. If these people had been classified POWs I'd have no objection to a tribunal or even, given they were armed and out of uniform in enemy territory, summary execution as spies and/or saboteurs. Remember, I still consider the war in Afghanistan a perfectly legitimate war against a state furthering its ends through terror, and that puts Al Qaeda on the same level as anyone else operating on behalf of one nation against and within another. That's exactly what we should've done, but we haven't, though it's not too late if we're big enough to say, "we goofed" then send them off to tribunals and nearly certain execution.

However, we've gone out of our way to deny they're POWs while simultaneously denying them status as civilians; when it was learned the designation "enemy combatant" still didn't mean we could treat them as we pleased, we repeatedly redefined the term (even though it's already defined for us by treaties we've signed) until it did. If you want to classify them as soldiers or spies and treat them that way, fine; if you want to classify them as civilians and treat them that way, also fine. As others have noted, allowing "any person [to be] punish[ed] as a principal under this chapter who commits an offense punishable by this chapter, or aids, abets, counsels, commands, or procures its commission " means you can give money to some Muslim "feed the children" program and wind up in Gitmo if someone finds out later they've given any money to terrorism. And, assuming you ever get a trial, the burden of proof is on you.

Also, let's not pretend giving them civilian trials means they'll be released if acquitted. Jose Padilla had terrorist charges DROPPED but he'll be in prison till he dies. Despite being a US citizen. Under "PATRIOT" ANYONE can be held indefinitely without charge, and even if charged and acquitted by a tribunal (which they are not required to receive any more than a civilian trial) need never be released. They're not going to "get away" man. Barring an act of God (not self-appointed human agents of His) they'll be dead before the decade.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
No need to interrogate Osama bin Laden? - 20/11/2009 12:48:27 AM 1001 Views
oO uhm, what? - 20/11/2009 12:54:13 AM 483 Views
Yeah, a lot of people were fuzzy on that till this started. - 20/11/2009 09:30:39 AM 511 Views
on the other hand, we're more than willing to take them out back with a confession. - 20/11/2009 06:34:12 PM 507 Views
As it seems we will. - 24/11/2009 09:41:18 AM 490 Views
New York is now asking for $75 MILLION for the KSM trial - 20/11/2009 01:43:26 AM 440 Views
Its to salve their conscinse - 20/11/2009 01:55:08 AM 441 Views
That's exactly the problem! - 20/11/2009 01:58:37 AM 467 Views
If this trial were being held in any other country - 20/11/2009 01:56:07 AM 468 Views
It's a terrible precedent no matter how you look at it. - 20/11/2009 02:13:46 AM 495 Views
It IS a terrible precdent, hence you and others are citing it 65 years after WWII ended. - 20/11/2009 09:23:45 AM 381 Views
Spare me the bullshit. - 20/11/2009 01:57:16 PM 378 Views
I will if you will. - 20/11/2009 02:55:30 PM 467 Views
No, you won't. You never will. - 20/11/2009 06:14:30 PM 363 Views
You're putting your cart before your horse is the problem. - 23/11/2009 05:40:46 AM 466 Views
No, that's not right. You don't read very closely. - 23/11/2009 02:21:54 PM 379 Views
In this case my reading comprehension is more than adequate. - 24/11/2009 09:16:39 AM 424 Views
You don't think this is a military struggle? Wow. - 20/11/2009 02:52:26 PM 419 Views
Allow me to point out... - 20/11/2009 03:02:33 PM 399 Views
Well, Timothy McVeigh was in OUR Army. - 20/11/2009 03:55:18 PM 517 Views
That's the thing, they aren't a terrorist group - 20/11/2009 04:54:31 PM 441 Views
It would help if you would offer any argument in favour of your stance. - 20/11/2009 08:43:08 PM 386 Views
I only use the word army cause I can't think of a better one - 21/11/2009 04:32:01 AM 402 Views
Yes. "Terrorist group". - 21/11/2009 12:02:04 PM 479 Views
Yeah I guess you're right - 22/11/2009 01:34:34 AM 388 Views
Military struggles involve militaries. - 20/11/2009 03:23:14 PM 554 Views
Once again, bullshit. - 20/11/2009 06:09:31 PM 524 Views
Aaaah, I see; it's a question of who's the master, is it? - 23/11/2009 07:47:43 AM 528 Views
You're wasting your time - 23/11/2009 02:24:57 PM 426 Views
This is wrong - 20/11/2009 07:41:35 PM 426 Views
We're a long way from the shore of Tripoli. - 23/11/2009 05:59:19 AM 472 Views
Nevertheless, uniforms or a nation is not a requirement - 23/11/2009 03:09:22 PM 433 Views
Rightly or wrongly, I disagree. - 24/11/2009 08:48:25 AM 483 Views
That is bad - 21/11/2009 12:31:04 AM 413 Views
You're not going far enough, man. - 20/11/2009 11:03:08 AM 460 Views
Blah blah blah blah blah *NM* - 20/11/2009 01:57:39 PM 193 Views
I just can't imagine how they expect to get a fair trial. - 20/11/2009 03:17:28 AM 385 Views
The Code of Conduct - 20/11/2009 07:23:02 PM 491 Views
The mention of God is interesting. *NM* - 21/11/2009 05:24:14 AM 307 Views
Your little diatribe in the beginning only makes me glad... - 22/11/2009 05:32:57 AM 544 Views
I understand your "jihadist narrative" - 22/11/2009 06:36:41 PM 530 Views
enemy combatants and terrorists - 23/11/2009 08:03:25 PM 503 Views
They're not different because from the Third World, but because terrorists. - 24/11/2009 08:09:13 AM 621 Views
not every soldier in history has worn a uniform - 24/11/2009 11:00:34 PM 296 Views
One example would be Ethan Allen and his Green Mountain Boys - 25/11/2009 06:23:08 PM 473 Views
Just for fun, let's call them fundamentalist vigilantes. *NM* - 24/11/2009 11:12:09 PM 168 Views
Works for me. - 01/12/2009 09:12:29 AM 451 Views

Reply to Message