Maybe I'm just out of the loop, but it doesn't seem that way.
Joel Send a noteboard - 05/03/2010 01:02:57 AM
We aren't talking about changes from the top-down here, but from the bottom up.
Protestors are more vigourous and are often more successful. Technology, despite the governments fumble-handed attempts to restrict and control it - is spinning beyond their ability to stop.
You're not wrong in that the government is still backwards, but the PEOPLE are pushing against it now 'kicking against the man' more and more - and more and more they're getting away with it. This is simply a matter of the people deciding that they've had quite enough. They KNOW what goes on in the rest of the world now, and they're tired of their BS government. It's becoming grassroots.
What's more, the government is starting to answer. Yes, they still imprison folks but some of these protests are now succeeding. The judiciary are going, "You're right, that guy is corrupt" and then jailing party officials. It's small still, but it would have been completely unheard of thirty years ago.
No one is ever going to 'make China change.' Genghis Khan couldn't do it even after he conquered the place. All the carrots and sticks in the world are just going to bounce off that millennial culture.
They have to do it themselves. It will be slow - but the Chinese culture always has been glacial in its pace so that shouldn't surprise anyone. But they are doing it - and done that way, from within, it'll stick.
Protestors are more vigourous and are often more successful. Technology, despite the governments fumble-handed attempts to restrict and control it - is spinning beyond their ability to stop.
You're not wrong in that the government is still backwards, but the PEOPLE are pushing against it now 'kicking against the man' more and more - and more and more they're getting away with it. This is simply a matter of the people deciding that they've had quite enough. They KNOW what goes on in the rest of the world now, and they're tired of their BS government. It's becoming grassroots.
What's more, the government is starting to answer. Yes, they still imprison folks but some of these protests are now succeeding. The judiciary are going, "You're right, that guy is corrupt" and then jailing party officials. It's small still, but it would have been completely unheard of thirty years ago.
No one is ever going to 'make China change.' Genghis Khan couldn't do it even after he conquered the place. All the carrots and sticks in the world are just going to bounce off that millennial culture.
They have to do it themselves. It will be slow - but the Chinese culture always has been glacial in its pace so that shouldn't surprise anyone. But they are doing it - and done that way, from within, it'll stick.
It's hard to be sure as closed as Chinese society has always been, even before the geopolitical aspect that played right into the governments traditional attitudes, but I hear a great deal from Chinese citizens angry at "US imperialism" and virtually nothing about their own governments imperialism within its borders or the region, let alone globally.
From the perspective of Western policy though we have seen and continue to see a carrot without a stick. The whole premise is that showing China democracys benefits will induce them to embrace it, applying it to individual citizens rather than the government doesn't change that approach. And I frankly do not see it; the government is too successful at promoting skepticism of outside information sources when they don't stop them entirely (hence encouragement of democracy is more often viewed as imperialist propaganda than as sincere. ) This actually dovetails nicely with snoops link below; without widespread WiFi and satellite links it's quite simple for the government to control information access online, easier than with radio since fiberoptics and telephone lines aren't exactly broadcasting. Google et alia have had their problems with Chinese authorities, too, y'know.
The conceit is that access is predicated on exchange, that in order to share the benefits of Western or global society Chinas government must adopt the policies that make them possible, that access to Western markets will invariably create access to Chinese ones, with all that flows from that. The problem is that Western policy makers are so fixated on that means to the end of reforming China that they'll do anything and everything to enable it--including providing the benefits of democracy directly, themselves, instead of China producing them as the dividends of democracy. Why should China allow and encourage large scale private enterprise when America offers up capital and manufacturing, even when it means importing human quality food and toothpaste laced with poison (both of which have occurred)? Why should it be any less belligerent when capture of US military aircraft in international airspace results in our "Cowboy" President BEGGING for the return of plane and crews (which only happened after the former was disassembled and the latter debriefed)? What does China, as a government or people, have to gain from democracy...? That's the question there as much as on the CMB.
China really shouldn't be singled out; it's symptomatic of a deeper problem with "free" trade falsely so called, as an end run around regs in the developing world that were only won at the cost of lives, but outside of Burma and the African dictatorships China's probably the worst offender, and the sheer volume of their impact in every arena only magnifies the problem; their stated goal of displacing the US in every arena punctuates their unique "contributions. "
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
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LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Why Iran's dictators can be deterred
23/02/2010 01:31:52 PM
- 733 Views
Not sure he showed us how they can be deterred
23/02/2010 01:56:42 PM
- 285 Views
Er yeah, that's totally the argument I was going for.
23/02/2010 02:06:52 PM
- 325 Views
No Palin was simply cover for the "we just have to accept Iran will get the bomb argument"
23/02/2010 02:26:45 PM
- 350 Views
She wasn't cover for anything, but I like how this argument keeps going that way.
23/02/2010 02:36:47 PM
- 325 Views
As I have noted it isn't conseratives that keep bring her up
23/02/2010 03:26:11 PM
- 276 Views
and I tried to take her out of the argument. But here we are.
23/02/2010 03:39:29 PM
- 311 Views
dealing with the repercussions of attacking another Islamic country may be our best option
23/02/2010 04:25:47 PM
- 406 Views
The world needs to decide how it feels about non-proliferation.
23/02/2010 07:11:51 PM
- 254 Views
yes American used the bomb so now we should let everyone else take a turn *NM*
24/02/2010 06:22:23 AM
- 179 Views
It would certainly demonstrate the folly of that view.
24/02/2010 06:49:56 AM
- 299 Views
well hell then why not just sel them nukes and get it over with
24/02/2010 02:33:00 PM
- 297 Views
I really don't think the folly need be demonstrated more than once.
28/02/2010 02:49:30 AM
- 236 Views
I think this guy lives on the moon
23/02/2010 02:51:20 PM
- 395 Views
I was just talking to Lupine about how I like your posts, but I'm gonna make an exception here.
23/02/2010 09:28:44 PM
- 356 Views
You'll have to link that then, I always like to read things that feed my ego
24/02/2010 12:17:37 AM
- 355 Views
Oh, it was on AIM.
24/02/2010 01:13:07 PM
- 419 Views
Ah well, I'll have to self feed my ego instead, fortunately I'm very good at that
25/02/2010 03:44:43 PM
- 355 Views
Here's an article in response to Zakaria's article
23/02/2010 03:19:41 PM
- 385 Views
I generally don't care for Fareed, but believe he's right this time.
23/02/2010 05:59:00 PM
- 417 Views
Iran is a thorny problem
24/02/2010 05:38:09 AM
- 316 Views
I still don't believe North Korea harmless.
24/02/2010 06:59:15 AM
- 416 Views
I never used the term 'harmless'
24/02/2010 10:01:14 PM
- 355 Views
Fair point, sorry.
25/02/2010 12:45:47 PM
- 383 Views
No worries - I was just making sure you understood my position
25/02/2010 05:19:10 PM
- 278 Views
Re: No worries - I was just making sure you understood my position
28/02/2010 02:30:26 AM
- 394 Views
Re: No worries - I was just making sure you understood my position
01/03/2010 03:53:58 PM
- 295 Views
A carrot without a stick is just a free carrot.
02/03/2010 08:01:23 AM
- 407 Views
It's not a carrot/stick thing at all
02/03/2010 04:29:00 PM
- 385 Views
Maybe I'm just out of the loop, but it doesn't seem that way.
05/03/2010 01:02:57 AM
- 424 Views
They can hit Tokyo
25/02/2010 06:10:44 PM
- 311 Views
So?
25/02/2010 07:01:37 PM
- 457 Views
I think you are grossly overestimating our border security
25/02/2010 08:03:13 PM
- 247 Views
Well, I KNOW you're ignorant about a lot of things and this shows it.
25/02/2010 08:56:45 PM
- 293 Views
Yes you are the Great Cold War Warrior of the chairforce
28/02/2010 06:44:31 PM
- 358 Views
Oh I'm sorry - so you're not so much ignorant as idiot.
01/03/2010 03:48:32 PM
- 241 Views
Israel does not have the military capability to destroy or significantly damage Iran's nuclear sites
24/02/2010 12:33:00 PM
- 397 Views
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about - and it shows to anyone who does
24/02/2010 10:33:29 PM
- 350 Views
I think this ties in well with this article
25/02/2010 09:56:04 AM
- 307 Views
It's going to happen regardless sooner or later; might as well get out in front and claim leadership
01/03/2010 06:29:57 AM
- 396 Views