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Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen The_Archer Send a noteboard - 12/12/2010 11:05:58 PM
just like all of them were referred to as the Forsaken (see the bold bit below)

Here is what RJ said on the subject:
TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005

Week 12 Question: In Winter's Heart, you mention that back in the Age of Legends, there were several other Forsaken that the Dark One had killed because he suspected they would betray him. What's their story? Were those people ever as high ranking as the thirteen survivors, or where they more like high-ranking Dreadlords then actual Forsaken?

Robert Jordan Answers: First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current" Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

Some of those Forsaken the Dark One killed were every bit as high-ranking as the thirteen who were remembered, and who you might say constituted a large part of the Dark One's General Staff at the time of the sealing. With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

In large part the thirteen were remembered because they were trapped at Shayol Ghul, and so their names became part of that story, though it turned out that details of them, stories of them, survived wide-spread knowledge of the tale of the actual sealing itself. Just that they had been sealed away. Other Forsaken were left behind, so to speak, free but in a world that was rapidly sliding down the tube. The men eventually went mad and died from the same taint that killed off the other male Aes Sedai. They had no access to the Dark One's protective filters. The women died, too, though from age or in battle or from natural disasters created by insane male Aes Sedai or from diseases that could no longer be controlled because civilization itself had been destroyed and access to those who were skilled in Healing was all but gone. And soon after their deaths, their names were forgotten, except for what might possibly be discovered in some ancient manuscript fragment that survived the Breaking. A bleak story of people who deserved no better, and not worth telling in any detail.


so what does he mean by......"They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

Is there a distinction between dreadlords and forsaken?

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More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken Sidious - 09/12/2010 03:45:27 PM 3304 Views
Yes. Cannoli - 09/12/2010 04:39:58 PM 1623 Views
No. moratcorlm - 09/12/2010 05:34:57 PM 1464 Views
Indeed! *NM* darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:39:47 PM 787 Views
Actually...exponential or at least non-linear makes alot of sense to me Myrdhyn - 09/12/2010 06:27:29 PM 1384 Views
Nope. Then Rand would be able to crush 13 Aes Sedai with ease. Shannow - 09/12/2010 06:32:53 PM 1604 Views
Three things: Myrdhyn - 09/12/2010 06:47:30 PM 1405 Views
That quote is incorrect as it contradicts all other evidence from later books... Shannow - 09/12/2010 06:51:02 PM 1373 Views
If strength isn't linear and on a steep enough curve that could work. Myrdhyn - 09/12/2010 07:22:24 PM 1414 Views
I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM 1307 Views
I wasn't aware this was an issue? LadyLorraine - 09/12/2010 04:45:02 PM 1420 Views
I just hope aMoL finally reveals who's going to be the Dragon Reborn...these lesser debates can hang *NM* Cannoli - 09/12/2010 05:26:37 PM 863 Views
*Spoiler* TGS and TOM revealed that Egwene is the DR. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 10/12/2010 07:57:53 PM 1174 Views
Agreed. Joel - 20/12/2010 01:17:32 AM 1481 Views
not really darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 04:46:42 PM 1400 Views
and you'll note that none of the angreal are considered particularly strong darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 04:48:14 PM 1336 Views
She probably weaved them separately on account of being pregnant *NM* Kieran - 09/12/2010 04:56:12 PM 843 Views
Pregnancy seems to be interfere with her ability to grasp the power darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:06:15 PM 1372 Views
I don't know if it's a more complex CHANNELING undertaking, though LadyLorraine - 09/12/2010 05:42:57 PM 1291 Views
I don't have the book handy, but she talks about the level of complexity darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:45:52 PM 1404 Views
hmm, but we still don't know if it's the weaves or the process that is so complex LadyLorraine - 09/12/2010 06:28:14 PM 1200 Views
Well according to Monaella it makes it harder to Channel, but from Elayne's POV darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 06:52:55 PM 1314 Views
Re: not really Zeratul - 09/12/2010 05:16:02 PM 1311 Views
Angreal have buffers moratcorlm - 09/12/2010 05:38:45 PM 1329 Views
none of them are very strong darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:38:49 PM 1292 Views
We never really get a feel for their relative strengths redqueen - 09/12/2010 05:51:38 PM 1209 Views
Re: We never really get a feel for their relative strengths sleepinghour - 09/12/2010 10:00:23 PM 1451 Views
Exactly moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 09:36:52 AM 1472 Views
Yes. In PoD Aviendha states that the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal almost doubles her strength... Shannow - 09/12/2010 06:30:41 PM 1337 Views
you have the wrong angreal and the wrong strength darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 07:07:18 PM 1313 Views
Nope. You are the one whose got the wrong angreal... Shannow - 09/12/2010 07:15:38 PM 1122 Views
where is that quote my friend? darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 08:07:50 PM 1182 Views
PoD: The Breaking Storm Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM 1140 Views
Ah yes, ... "almost 2x as much" still doesn't support your assertion that Nyn is 50% above Elayne darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 08:20:37 PM 1284 Views
That's a gross skewing of what that sentence means... Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:05:05 PM 1287 Views
Don't be absurd... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:21:00 PM 1305 Views
Yes, but does BS know that? Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:26:10 PM 1229 Views
Nonsense... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:45:17 PM 1256 Views
she does not say that! she says Moghedien could kill her before she could react. so could Daigian darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 09:34:50 PM 1363 Views
"The only Aes Sedai who could hope to match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar..." Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:44:25 PM 1389 Views
And yet... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:48:34 PM 1288 Views
No, Egwene does NOT think she can defeat Mesaana in a One Power battle... Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:59:35 PM 1531 Views
Here are te quotes... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 10:10:09 PM 1335 Views
Did you not read the quote above, made by Egwene in the heat of battle with Mesaana? Shannow - 09/12/2010 10:34:05 PM 1331 Views
It might interest you to know that that was Katerine! fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 12:15:51 AM 1143 Views
Oh nonsense Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:43:44 AM 1213 Views
But that's his point. Gher - 10/12/2010 06:01:59 AM 1223 Views
its a useless point Sidious - 10/12/2010 10:11:00 AM 1319 Views
Yes, utterly useless... Shannow - 10/12/2010 11:46:15 AM 1276 Views
Dude, you need to re-read the books... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:15:11 PM 1218 Views
he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 08:19:16 PM 1236 Views
Re: he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:21:49 AM 1296 Views
potentially, but Mesaana later turns up with BA using the 19 stolen ter'angreal. darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:41:41 PM 1202 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM 1192 Views
Re: I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM 1262 Views
What? fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 11:19:57 PM 1326 Views
Re: What? Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:20:19 AM 1275 Views
Oh boohoo... fionwe1987 - 11/12/2010 07:55:58 PM 1301 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 06:47:17 AM 1156 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 06:47:18 AM 1281 Views
which only tells us that Nynaeve is equal to the Forsaken. Has nothing to do with Egwene being darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 01:51:12 PM 1078 Views
Nynaeve has been channeling (albeit blocked) for close to 10 years darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 02:24:57 PM 1376 Views
Think about the logic of what you're proposing... Shannow - 10/12/2010 02:39:56 PM 1315 Views
It's what's in the friggin books! darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 03:33:08 PM 1275 Views
Duplicate post - deleted *NM* Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:19:05 PM 636 Views
Re: Yes. moratcorlm - 09/12/2010 07:49:12 PM 1307 Views
You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:03:51 PM 1417 Views
where this falls apart is that Daigian at a 10 is too weak darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 08:16:17 PM 1340 Views
Nope... Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM 1060 Views
now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM 1160 Views
Nope... Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:42:58 PM 1244 Views
all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 08:04:02 PM 1281 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW sleepinghour - 11/12/2010 11:59:55 PM 1213 Views
that's the point I'm making darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 12:58:38 AM 1085 Views
I don't think Elayne was forced Zeratul - 12/12/2010 04:33:26 PM 1253 Views
I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 04:43:29 PM 1035 Views
Re: I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 04:46:50 PM 1284 Views
Thanks for the quote Zeratul - 12/12/2010 07:17:30 PM 1363 Views
perhaps the opportunity hasn't arisen? And of course it's politic to appologize to the Amyrlin darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 07:41:11 PM 1227 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW sleepinghour - 12/12/2010 08:04:21 PM 1250 Views
that's where I'm estimating Nynaeve being close to Siuan and Moiraine in EoTW darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 08:30:54 PM 1237 Views
Re: now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say sleepinghour - 10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM 1438 Views
nope darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 02:05:00 PM 1361 Views
Mesaana Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:43:07 AM 1139 Views
agreed darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 01:48:59 PM 1195 Views
Re: agreed Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:38:28 PM 1063 Views
very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 05:03:43 PM 1146 Views
Re: very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:22:54 AM 1320 Views
yes and no darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:47:28 PM 1278 Views
Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM 1315 Views
OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels. Shannow - 10/12/2010 12:00:48 PM 1212 Views
"clear evidence" moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 01:27:01 PM 1256 Views
Laughable interpretation... Shannow - 10/12/2010 01:31:57 PM 1259 Views
Re: Laughable interpretation... moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 03:34:01 PM 1284 Views
Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:27:30 PM 1202 Views
Doesn't the forkroot explain that? *NM* Gher - 10/12/2010 04:47:53 PM 832 Views
couple of thoughts here darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 08:01:44 PM 1257 Views
Re: couple of thoughts here fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 11:27:19 PM 1175 Views
that's what I said! EDIT darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 04:03:59 PM 1091 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 11/12/2010 07:58:38 PM 1280 Views
Katerine is a pain in the ass and Silviana wasn't about to risk only one woman holding that shield darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 08:26:29 PM 1121 Views
Leane was shielded by two sisters as well sleepinghour - 11/12/2010 11:14:08 PM 1148 Views
I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 11:22:12 PM 1175 Views
Re: I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells sleepinghour - 12/12/2010 12:04:33 AM 1275 Views
I agree with that completely. darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 01:03:54 AM 1214 Views
Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like? fionwe1987 - 12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM 1284 Views
re-read the section my friend. EDIT darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 03:58:28 PM 1186 Views
Dude... fionwe1987 - 12/12/2010 06:29:43 PM 1155 Views
did you read the quote? They discuss how much they gave her on the way to the Tower! darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 07:39:55 PM 1286 Views
Not one of those things answers my rather simple question... fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 02:27:44 AM 1249 Views
because it's the first time Egwene has been dosed with Forkroot darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 03:55:18 AM 1181 Views
She knows but she doesn't know? fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 05:35:55 AM 1273 Views
She knows that Nynaeve had told her it dampened her ability darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 05:13:23 PM 1184 Views
And she doesn't know any details... fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 07:19:12 PM 1187 Views
this conversation is so pointless darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 10:43:35 PM 1070 Views
Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM 1074 Views
Re: Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. Sidious - 14/12/2010 11:06:55 AM 1087 Views
Of course its obvious now! fionwe1987 - 14/12/2010 12:44:59 PM 1291 Views
it was always obvious that to me. The first thing Egwene thinks is about what the drug does to her darius_sedai - 18/12/2010 05:07:38 AM 1133 Views
Shielding Sidious - 13/12/2010 08:01:19 PM 2636 Views
Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 10:50:09 PM 1228 Views
Re: Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO Sidious - 14/12/2010 04:25:20 AM 1352 Views
There is, actually... fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 11:28:42 PM 1133 Views
Meh Sidious - 14/12/2010 04:22:45 AM 1242 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2010 04:37:50 AM 1268 Views
Re: Well... Sidious - 14/12/2010 10:52:55 AM 1234 Views
Tell Darius that... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2010 12:47:19 PM 1172 Views
of course Katerine is redundant! 2 women of Barasine and Katerine's strength darius_sedai - 18/12/2010 05:00:50 AM 1158 Views
Re: Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:31:25 AM 1370 Views
um, Elayne was in the process of bleeding to death and then had just been Healed darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:50:27 PM 1265 Views
You forget... fionwe1987 - 11/12/2010 08:02:03 PM 1293 Views
astounding "evidence" darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 09:58:47 PM 1289 Views
Re: astounding "evidence" The_Archer - 11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM 1304 Views
thanks darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:54:54 PM 1431 Views
Re: thanks The_Archer - 12/12/2010 12:49:52 PM 1139 Views
We're not in disagreement for the most part darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 04:23:02 PM 1127 Views
Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part The_Archer - 12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM 1231 Views
Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 05:13:46 PM 1258 Views
Re: Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken The_Archer - 12/12/2010 06:35:02 PM 1213 Views
All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 07:50:59 PM 1238 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen The_Archer - 12/12/2010 11:05:58 PM 1284 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen The_Archer - 12/12/2010 11:11:29 PM 1190 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen The_Archer - 12/12/2010 11:14:47 PM 1258 Views
I don't get the logic here... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:41:18 PM 1292 Views
which was one of my first thoughts in reading the scene! *NM* darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 09:43:54 PM 888 Views
It doubles her strength. Nynaeve is only 50% stronger. So she only needs half of it to match Nynaeve Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:46:42 PM 1218 Views
And...? fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:51:57 PM 1233 Views
Personally, I thought it had something to do with not harming the babies. Shannow - 09/12/2010 10:01:10 PM 1151 Views
That was my interpretation too Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:36:38 AM 1196 Views
Re: That was my interpretation too moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 09:31:12 AM 1338 Views
what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 04:12:34 PM 1297 Views
The oaths proposal is after the jailhouse break in the timeline Zeratul - 10/12/2010 04:31:12 PM 1181 Views
*Double post, please delete* *NM* Zeratul - 10/12/2010 04:35:54 PM 730 Views
You are correct! So clearly worry about the babies was not a reason to not draw more darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 05:05:30 PM 1201 Views
And... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:32:28 PM 1187 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:41:25 PM 1201 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 05:02:10 PM 1207 Views
and as a poster above points out the scene is AFTER she's stabbed darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 05:07:17 PM 1244 Views
Yes, I did know that. moratcorlm - 11/12/2010 04:06:00 PM 1228 Views
meant that response to go to Sidious ... sorry! darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 08:44:40 PM 1284 Views
Oops. *NM* moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 07:15:57 PM 785 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken The_Archer - 10/12/2010 08:22:21 PM 1160 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken sleepinghour - 10/12/2010 08:33:25 PM 1223 Views
We have very little to go on with the FS strengths... darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 09:04:33 PM 1320 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken The_Archer - 10/12/2010 09:12:12 PM 1117 Views
they can actually sense both which is how Elayne knows Nynaeve is not at full potential darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 09:22:35 PM 1261 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken The_Archer - 10/12/2010 09:31:13 PM 1298 Views
Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 10:08:16 PM 1185 Views
Re: Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around The_Archer - 10/12/2010 10:50:32 PM 1280 Views
It's more than just fear of Moridin that makes her choose an attack from such a distance darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 11:10:57 PM 1160 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken sleepinghour - 10/12/2010 10:50:20 PM 1279 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:29:30 AM 1425 Views
Help im new! The_Archer - 13/12/2010 07:41:04 PM 1308 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. The Angry Druid - 13/12/2010 09:56:45 PM 1403 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. The_Archer - 13/12/2010 10:50:25 PM 1208 Views
How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? *NM* Lord Haart - 18/12/2010 02:53:22 PM 812 Views
Re: How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? Sidious - 18/12/2010 08:21:24 PM 1143 Views
Look at the topic. As if we needed evidence that Elayne is weaker than the Foresaken. Lord Haart - 19/12/2010 04:41:25 AM 1166 Views
you misread the topic Sidious - 19/12/2010 05:30:26 AM 1309 Views
But the debate is moronic because... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2010 05:43:07 AM 1176 Views
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