Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: Egwene, a poor leader? by fairfax

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Re: Egwene, a poor leader? fairfax Send a noteboard - 19/12/2010 08:41:31 PM

I'm not so sure about the appointment part. From what I understand, the Hall has a great deal of influence over this process. Besides, what offices are there to which Egwene can make appointments? The only one I can think of it as ambassadors to other nations; the Hall and Ajahs run the rest.

The power of apppointment can be used either positively or negatively. Egwene can appoint sisters who oppose her to meaningless tasks or meaningless places without input from the Hall. An ally of Romanda could be sent to Arad Doman to distribute food, an ally of Lelaine could be given task of rat removal for Tar Valon, and if you really piss Egwene off you could be sent as a Windfinder instructor. On a positive note Egwene can make appointments that strengthen he position in the Tower. Silvliana is an example. Egwene got a very competetant Keeper and she made a gesture that would get Red support. Egwene can use appointments to weaken her foes and strengthen her supporters.

Which makes her a tyrant, rather than a good leader per say. A good leader unites people with positive reinforcement, a tyrant makes paranoid decisions like demoting enemies. If she goes that path, she's no better than Elaida.

The definition of a tyrant: a soverign or ruler who uses power oppressively or unjustly. Tell me when Egwene used her power oppressively or unjustly. Don't give me the speech she gave to the Aes Sedai when the Tower was united. Giving a speech that might make you fell bad is not oppressive. Sending a Sister that is dispruptive to distrbute food in Arad Doman, a job that should be done is not oppresive. It is what a good leader does. A real life example: When the Neville Chamberlain government fell the two candidates for being Prime Minister of Great Britain were Winston Churchill and Lord Halifax. Winston was selected. Winston didn't want the potentially disruptive Lord Halifax around so he made Lord Halifax Ambassador to the United States. Was the duly elected Winston Churchill a tyrant?

You obviously have never been a manager in a business, a political leader, or lead a diverse group of people. I have never seen in my 30 years in business a good manager exclusively use positive reinforcement. The idea that a good leader unites people only using positive reinforcement is the realm of the young, the inexperienced, and dreamworld college professors who have never had to manage a business/nation in their lives.

can rely on what, ten Aes Sedai? Out of approximately 1000? Elayne and Nynaeve aren't planning on living their lives in the Tower to be able to support her, so while trustworthy I really can't count on them as being reliable when it really comes down to it. As you say, she'll need 20 years for all the novices to become AS before she's able to rely on them. In the interrim, she'll have to fight tooth and nail to get anything done.

I think Egwene can rely on a few more than ten Aes Sedai. The Aes Sedai who really oppose Egwene are few in number. Most of the Aes Sedai will support Egwene because she is the Amyrlin. Romanda, Lelaine, and their handful of supporters will continue to oppose some if not most of Egwene policies, but I don't think they want to overthrow Egwene with Tarmon Gaidan just around the corner.

I guess we will have to disagree on the power of the moral suasion of Nyneave and Elayne. I think most Aes Seadai seeing Egwene being supported by the Queen of Malkier, defeater of Moggy, healer of the stilled, healer of the taint, healer of taint madness, healer of the weather, and the most powerful channeler in the Tower would give supporting Egwene a thought.

IMO, using the respect of others as a justification of leadership only goes so far. If she is a GOOD leader, she will at least be respected (not feared) by her enemies. IMO, a big part of this is humility. Her decisions should be respected because they make sense on their own, not because she is the one putting them forward. So far, I think her decision making hasn't been too bad, everything given, but coming up to Merrilor I see a situation where her ego could affect her rationality.

A good leader is both respected and feared by her enemies. You are right the respect and support of Elayne and Nyneave as justification of leadership only goes so far. That respect and support are just one leg that supports Egwene. You are also right Egwene will rise or fall on her own decisions and actions. So far she has done alright. Why do you think the upcoming situation, in Merrilor, that Egwene's ego will affect her rationality?

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Egwene, a poor leader? redhand - 16/12/2010 05:59:15 PM 2321 Views

Egwene isn't supposed to be a leader. She's a dictator and a politician. lilltempest - 16/12/2010 08:21:13 PM 1485 Views

Well! No love lost there

echooff - 17/12/2010 01:52:59 PM 987 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? RabidWombat - 16/12/2010 09:35:44 PM 1256 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? Hot Pie - 16/12/2010 10:53:20 PM 1167 Views

If the Shadow had removed Elaida so Egwene was Amyrlin whilst Rand was still Dark ... ajfurst - 16/12/2010 11:56:08 PM 1128 Views

Same thing if Elaida was in charge when meeting w/ Dark Rand. *NM* Lord Haart - 17/12/2010 02:10:20 AM 612 Views

Except Rand wouldn't go to the WT with Elaida in charge, without having to fight ajfurst - 17/12/2010 02:50:18 AM 1255 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? fairfax - 17/12/2010 03:07:40 AM 1257 Views

Exactly how loyal do you think Nynaeve and Elayne are? moratcorlm - 17/12/2010 04:52:34 AM 1044 Views

Re: Exactly how loyal do you think Nynaeve and Elayne are? fairfax - 17/12/2010 05:44:30 AM 1147 Views

That was the case a few books back Lord Haart - 17/12/2010 07:44:32 AM 1146 Views

Re: That was the case a few books back fairfax - 17/12/2010 10:14:36 AM 1149 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? Macharius - 17/12/2010 02:30:48 PM 1215 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? fairfax - 17/12/2010 08:25:39 PM 979 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? Lord Haart - 18/12/2010 05:06:21 AM 1133 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? fairfax - 19/12/2010 08:41:31 PM 1050 Views

Torturing Nynaeve for exclusively her own political ends. *NM* moratcorlm - 20/12/2010 12:14:55 AM 644 Views

Re: Torturing Nynaeve for exclusively her own political ends. fairfax - 20/12/2010 01:24:12 AM 1100 Views

And the most painful torments were caused by Egwene moratcorlm - 20/12/2010 09:31:44 AM 1214 Views

That's not quite true. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 20/12/2010 06:47:33 PM 1022 Views

That's not quite accurate. moratcorlm - 21/12/2010 01:22:26 AM 1270 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? Lord Haart - 20/12/2010 12:57:42 AM 977 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? fairfax - 20/12/2010 02:02:05 AM 1132 Views

Re: Egwene, a poor leader? Lord Haart - 22/12/2010 07:08:37 AM 1041 Views

She has the same power base as any Amyrlin - the Aes Sedai, the artisans, Guards & citizens of TV RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2010 05:51:20 PM 1129 Views

Ta'veren vs. Mary Sue lilltempest - 17/12/2010 07:33:28 PM 1519 Views

I see them as being the same thing. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2010 08:11:30 PM 1146 Views

I don't think the case can be made for Rand having it easy A Deathwatch Guard - 17/12/2010 11:04:58 PM 1060 Views

I would say that in the grand scheme of things, Rand's had good to balance out the bad. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 20/12/2010 06:27:35 PM 1047 Views

Funniest statement I've ever seen on here. Lord Haart - 18/12/2010 05:22:28 AM 1151 Views

Agree with your comments. Rebekah - 20/12/2010 03:12:32 PM 1496 Views

But you are just undervaluing Egwene's struggles in comparison to the other characters. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 20/12/2010 06:17:17 PM 1451 Views

Re: But you are just undervaluing Egwene's struggles in comparison to the other characters. Lord Haart - 22/12/2010 05:28:01 PM 1232 Views

You need to post more about Egwene Zeratul - 17/12/2010 08:16:19 PM 1131 Views

Nah. Just a hyopcrite. *NM* Chas - 17/12/2010 09:28:28 PM 608 Views

Yes, but for completely different reasons... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2010 12:35:23 AM 1176 Views

Yes, communication is key. Lord Haart - 18/12/2010 05:32:01 AM 1038 Views

You think Egwene has more power than Tuon? Lohikaarme - 18/12/2010 12:27:01 PM 1003 Views

Re: You think Egwene has more power than Tuon? Lord Haart - 18/12/2010 02:41:25 PM 925 Views

Definitely... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2010 03:24:12 PM 1039 Views

Where does the 200000 number come from? *NM* moratcorlm - 18/12/2010 03:36:22 PM 560 Views

That's not right... Hot Pie - 19/12/2010 12:56:25 AM 1019 Views

Re: That's not right... fairfax - 19/12/2010 11:38:54 PM 1132 Views

What's said above. Plus Lohikaarme - 19/12/2010 11:00:42 AM 981 Views

More explanations... fionwe1987 - 20/12/2010 02:51:25 AM 1005 Views

Re: More explanations... moratcorlm - 20/12/2010 09:40:46 AM 1061 Views

Aiel, Cairhien and Andor are NOT under Egwenes power. Lohikaarme - 20/12/2010 02:46:44 PM 1070 Views

Re: More explanations... Zeratul - 20/12/2010 03:58:58 PM 1186 Views

An Amyrlin doesn't really have a power base. BlackAdder - 18/12/2010 05:43:12 AM 1117 Views

I think comparing Egwene to McCain is asking for trouble on several fronts.

Joel - 20/12/2010 12:33:04 AM 1004 Views

She has a pretty powerful weapon... fionwe1987 - 20/12/2010 02:41:32 AM 1029 Views

RJ is more powerful. Joel - 20/12/2010 03:25:49 AM 1153 Views

I'd advise a re-read. Of ToM, and maybe the whole series... fionwe1987 - 20/12/2010 03:58:03 AM 1071 Views

Re: I'd advise a re-read. Of ToM, and maybe the whole series... Lohikaarme - 21/12/2010 09:08:20 PM 1072 Views

Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... moratcorlm - 20/12/2010 09:46:22 AM 1113 Views

Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... fionwe1987 - 20/12/2010 09:55:03 AM 978 Views

Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... moratcorlm - 20/12/2010 10:27:59 AM 1067 Views

One example of this... Zeratul - 20/12/2010 11:15:03 AM 1099 Views

Re: One example of this... moratcorlm - 20/12/2010 11:22:10 AM 966 Views

Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon... Zeratul - 20/12/2010 11:08:35 AM 1046 Views

That's not quite true. Chas - 20/12/2010 10:35:45 PM 1066 Views

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<quote id="180447">
<quote>
I'm not so sure about the appointment part. From what I understand, the Hall has a great deal of influence over this process. Besides, what offices are there to which Egwene can make appointments? The only one I can think of it as ambassadors to other nations; the Hall and Ajahs run the rest.
</quote>
<quote>
The power of apppointment can be used either positively or negatively.  Egwene can appoint sisters who oppose her to meaningless tasks or meaningless places without input from the Hall. An ally of Romanda could be sent to Arad Doman to distribute food, an ally of Lelaine could be given task of rat removal for Tar Valon, and if you really piss Egwene off you could be sent as a Windfinder instructor.  On a positive note Egwene can make appointments that strengthen he position in the Tower.  Silvliana is an example.  Egwene got a very competetant Keeper and she made a gesture that would get Red support.  Egwene can use appointments to weaken her foes and strengthen her supporters.
</quote>
<quote>
Which makes her a tyrant, rather than a good leader per say.  A good leader unites people with positive reinforcement, a tyrant makes paranoid decisions like demoting enemies.  If she goes that path, she's no better than Elaida.
</quote>

You obviously have never been a manager in a business, a political leader, or lead a diverse group of people.  I have never seen in my 30 years in business a good manager exclusively use positive reinforcement.  The idea that a good leader unites people only using positive reinforcement is the realm of the young,  the inexperienced, and dreamworld college professors who have never had to manage a business/nation in their lives.

<quote>
can rely on what, ten Aes Sedai? Out of approximately 1000? Elayne and Nynaeve aren't planning on living their lives in the Tower to be able to support her, so while trustworthy I really can't count on them as being reliable when it really comes down to it. As you say, she'll need 20 years for all the novices to become AS before she's able to rely on them. In the interrim, she'll have to fight tooth and nail to get anything done.</quote>
<quote>
I think Egwene can rely on a few more than ten Aes Sedai.  The Aes Sedai who really oppose Egwene are few in number.  Most of the Aes Sedai will support Egwene because she is the Amyrlin.  Romanda, Lelaine, and their handful of supporters will continue to oppose some if not most of Egwene policies, but I don't think they want to overthrow Egwene with Tarmon Gaidan just around the corner.

I guess we will have to disagree on the power of the moral suasion of Nyneave and Elayne.  I think most Aes Seadai seeing Egwene being supported by the Queen of Malkier, defeater of Moggy, healer of the stilled, healer of the taint, healer of taint madness, healer of the weather, and the most powerful channeler in the Tower would give supporting Egwene a thought. </quote>
<quote>
IMO, using the respect of others as a justification of leadership only goes so far.  If she is a GOOD leader, she will at least be respected (not feared) by her enemies.  IMO, a big part of this is humility.  Her decisions should be respected because they make sense on their own, not because she is the one putting them forward.  So far, I think her decision making hasn't been too bad, everything given, but coming up to Merrilor I see a situation where her ego could affect her rationality.</quote>

A good leader is both respected and feared by her enemies.  You are right the respect and support of Elayne and Nyneave as justification of leadership only goes so far.  That respect and support are just one leg that supports Egwene.  You are also right Egwene will rise or fall on her own decisions and actions.  So far she has done alright.  Why do you think the upcoming situation, in Merrilor, that Egwene's ego will affect her rationality?
</quote>

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