Re: this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power
DomA Send a noteboard - 20/11/2012 02:45:18 PM
Skill clearly sets the top 6 apart ... Ishamael, Lanfear, Demandred, Sammael, Graendal, Semirhage clearly had the best combination of Power, skill and savvy. Aginor and the others could have had more strength, but either skill or personality kept them from the highest rungs.
Perhaps they're all close in raw strength, and perhaps they're not so close as that. The fact you guys still argue over their strengths after 13 books is because we don't have enough information to be certain of anything. And one of the main reasons we don't is because the Chosen themselves tend to factor their raw strength advantages or disadvantages for much, much less than third age channellers whose knowledge of the OP is minimal and forcing them to rely on simpler tricks most often dependent on raw strength.
The Chosen come from an Age where personal angreal and mixed gender circles were common place. None of them is stupid enough to rely primarily on strength when they've learned to fight in a War where a woman like Lanfear might have to fight for her life against a much weaker underling who suddenly acquired an angreal. They've all learned to rely on their best skills.
Raw strengths comparisons don't come naturally to them the way it does for third age Aes Sedai. Some of them might be very close in raw strength, I tend to think there might be some gaps larger than we think, but I think the differences whatever they are aren't very apparent anyway, far less than among AS, because they all come from the same crucible of pre-Collapse full Aes Sedai training, while OP knowledge vary a very great deal more between third Age channelers (groups, ajah, individuals keep some of their discoveries secret). Not only that, but they've all fought in the same war, picked up a lot of the same tricks developed for destruction and fighting other channellers.
We see this reflected a lot in the series. It's in their vastly superior knowledge and skills the Chosen systematically glorify themselves with (and they're keener to compare their special skills, their non-OP related skills and weaknesses and their respective cunning than anything else), while among third Agers, it's the raw strength of the Forsaken they find amazing and intimidating... They push this to the point of absurdity, like believing that the Cleansing was the female Forsaken working together...
We see the Forsaken barely ever referring to their respective strengths. They know all thirteen have pretty much the same basic knowledge and training, and all of them have learned to use their best skills rather than rely on their strength. In the pre-Shadow days, they wouldn't have let their strength limit them, they simply had to use an angreal at need. Even Lanfear knows better than to count on a gap between her and Graendal, Moghedien and Mesaana, when that gap might be filled at any time by an hidden angreal.
How many standard deviations is Lanfear
15/11/2012 06:04:39 PM
- 2301 Views
Hmm...
15/11/2012 07:25:34 PM
- 1433 Views
see we CAN agree on stuff
15/11/2012 07:56:12 PM
- 1273 Views
18/11/2012 08:37:22 PM
- 1140 Views


Re:
18/11/2012 11:07:17 PM
- 1362 Views

Re:
19/11/2012 05:16:00 AM
- 1192 Views

Re:
19/11/2012 03:13:01 PM
- 1177 Views

They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5%
19/11/2012 03:19:19 PM
- 1202 Views
Re: They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5%
19/11/2012 04:01:43 PM
- 1398 Views
Re: They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5%
19/11/2012 09:04:04 PM
- 1157 Views
Hmmm...
20/11/2012 02:08:40 AM
- 1235 Views
Perhaps, but Egwene is also being a bit dramatic in the scene as she managed
20/11/2012 04:28:57 AM
- 1175 Views
Nope...
20/11/2012 03:13:13 PM
- 1236 Views
I believe she is being over dramatic
20/11/2012 03:26:24 PM
- 1121 Views
Keep believing that...
20/11/2012 03:30:14 PM
- 1269 Views
*shrugs*
20/11/2012 03:49:10 PM
- 1227 Views
Tired and forkroot are the same now?
20/11/2012 03:55:22 PM
- 1104 Views
No it's the literary device
20/11/2012 04:04:28 PM
- 1247 Views
Impossible. Daigian is exactly 0.32SD below the mean
19/11/2012 11:06:04 AM
- 1182 Views
You keep saying that, but it is either a linear or a non-linear distribution
19/11/2012 09:09:32 PM
- 1232 Views
That's the whole point. Thanks for finally seeing it.
19/11/2012 09:43:27 PM
- 1194 Views
keep believing that ... but you making up numbers isn't really relevant *NM*
20/11/2012 04:29:44 AM
- 772 Views
Please show me a number that is made up. The 0.32SD for Daigian is a rule of statistics.
20/11/2012 07:15:48 AM
- 1146 Views
Ugh. I hate power level discussions. For real world applications, it should be kind of meaningless
16/11/2012 10:28:49 PM
- 1133 Views
I don't really agree
18/11/2012 08:40:53 PM
- 1103 Views
Perhaps, but we've seen that a MUCH weaker Channeler can win in a duel
19/11/2012 09:13:48 PM
- 1150 Views
Re: Perhaps, but we've seen that a MUCH weaker Channeler can win in a duel
20/11/2012 08:10:01 AM
- 1124 Views
Since I've proven that it's not a normal distribution in units of absolute strength, SDs don't apply
17/11/2012 07:48:21 PM
- 1182 Views
You have proven nothing, except that you have an opinion *NM*
18/11/2012 02:21:35 AM
- 749 Views
You simply don't get it. It is mathematically a fact. There is no opinion involved.
18/11/2012 02:19:40 PM
- 1019 Views
Only because you've assigned numeric values. That you created.
18/11/2012 02:40:51 PM
- 1148 Views
It doesn't matter what figure you use...
18/11/2012 03:01:56 PM
- 1033 Views
What if Daigian is one third Lanfear's strength?
18/11/2012 04:37:58 PM
- 1188 Views
Sure you can
18/11/2012 10:09:31 PM
- 1181 Views
Re: Sure you can
18/11/2012 10:54:50 PM
- 1163 Views
You're right, though its 37.5%
19/11/2012 12:21:29 AM
- 1116 Views
Oops, typo!
19/11/2012 02:54:25 AM
- 1160 Views
Again, not possible, due to Daigian being just 0.3SD below the Mean
19/11/2012 08:37:01 AM
- 1113 Views
Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys...
19/11/2012 04:05:12 PM
- 1041 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys...
19/11/2012 05:55:02 PM
- 994 Views
Egwene is about as strong as Melaine and Amys combined
19/11/2012 09:19:50 PM
- 1117 Views
Re: Egwene is about as strong as Melaine and Amys combined
20/11/2012 02:11:26 AM
- 1192 Views
Forkroot in every case
20/11/2012 04:32:26 AM
- 1115 Views
No!
20/11/2012 03:15:16 PM
- 1105 Views
I'm not going to go re-read the books to you on this
20/11/2012 03:39:46 PM
- 1130 Views
You need to read it for yourself, since you're completely confused.
20/11/2012 03:54:26 PM
- 1092 Views
Not going to argue this with you.
20/11/2012 04:09:44 PM
- 1050 Views
Your own example disproved your point...
20/11/2012 04:39:25 PM
- 1169 Views
let's see, she's both asleep and would need hours to regain her strength
20/11/2012 04:43:17 PM
- 1071 Views
Enough!
20/11/2012 05:04:06 PM
- 1127 Views
LOL ... whatever. You go on believing that ... no one else sees it this way. *NM*
20/11/2012 05:20:52 PM
- 737 Views
Re: Your own example disproved your point...
20/11/2012 05:10:15 PM
- 1170 Views
Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than
20/11/2012 05:26:31 PM
- 1176 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys...
20/11/2012 02:26:47 AM
- 1071 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys...
20/11/2012 09:03:40 AM
- 1100 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys...
20/11/2012 02:59:08 PM
- 1140 Views
None of this is backed by any evidence...
20/11/2012 03:24:12 PM
- 1073 Views
who said Cadsuane was 1.5x Moiraine or more?
20/11/2012 04:03:13 PM
- 1080 Views
Nope...
20/11/2012 04:41:35 PM
- 1106 Views
wrong
20/11/2012 04:48:50 PM
- 1025 Views
Better evidence? LOL!
20/11/2012 03:18:55 PM
- 1115 Views
Huh? How did you come to that conclusion?
20/11/2012 04:40:56 PM
- 1120 Views
BEcause Cadsuane is close on the heels of Egwene?
20/11/2012 05:10:50 PM
- 1033 Views
I'm not arguing that. I agree that Cadsuane is pretty close to Egwene
20/11/2012 05:50:34 PM
- 1154 Views
Interesting, but let's go with your figures...
19/11/2012 06:54:54 AM
- 1145 Views
Indeed
19/11/2012 08:16:44 AM
- 1208 Views
Rand is sort of a special case
20/11/2012 04:25:02 AM
- 1072 Views
Regarding Mesaana...
20/11/2012 08:42:56 AM
- 1107 Views
You continue to mix two things
20/11/2012 03:24:44 PM
- 1030 Views
No
20/11/2012 04:54:19 PM
- 1264 Views
You are mistaken
20/11/2012 05:04:40 PM
- 1119 Views
Probably, but the AS have no idea what 37.5% means
19/11/2012 02:59:26 AM
- 1070 Views
It's irrelevant
19/11/2012 03:46:42 AM
- 1141 Views
Agreed. Daigian is the marker of the absolute bottom of Aes Sedai strength.
19/11/2012 06:55:41 AM
- 1108 Views
Daigian
19/11/2012 08:12:19 AM
- 1112 Views
It is a direct marker due to RJ's quote
19/11/2012 08:50:26 AM
- 1138 Views
You missed my point
19/11/2012 09:08:42 AM
- 1057 Views
Asmodean would never have made the comment about 13 weakest AS
20/11/2012 04:41:11 AM
- 1076 Views
Re: Asmodean would never have made the comment about 13 weakest AS
20/11/2012 09:07:49 AM
- 1065 Views
Re: Sure you can
19/11/2012 09:22:09 AM
- 1198 Views
Care to explain this...
19/11/2012 05:06:28 PM
- 1022 Views
Indeed
20/11/2012 07:16:37 AM
- 1223 Views
Explained far better than I ever could. Bravo.
20/11/2012 07:30:29 AM
- 1077 Views
Well duh.
20/11/2012 02:57:24 PM
- 1199 Views
Incorrect.
20/11/2012 04:28:07 PM
- 1173 Views
No
20/11/2012 04:44:16 PM
- 1163 Views
You're integrating without lower limits...
20/11/2012 02:55:06 PM
- 1130 Views
We are not talking about a normal distribution in any case
20/11/2012 04:44:24 AM
- 971 Views
Re: We are not talking about a normal distribution in any case
20/11/2012 07:02:47 AM
- 1177 Views
You must tell me of this special math...
20/11/2012 03:10:09 PM
- 1045 Views
Re: You must tell me of this special math...
20/11/2012 04:29:40 PM
- 1104 Views
Morghase is a placeholder...
20/11/2012 04:45:42 PM
- 1184 Views
Well...
18/11/2012 08:43:59 PM
- 1177 Views
Re: Well...
19/11/2012 03:40:44 PM
- 1157 Views
Wow.
19/11/2012 03:53:47 PM
- 1182 Views
Well then you're both wrong I'm afraid
19/11/2012 06:09:36 PM
- 1094 Views
Re: Well then you're both wrong I'm afraid
19/11/2012 07:42:58 PM
- 960 Views
this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power
20/11/2012 04:51:20 AM
- 1188 Views
Re: this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power
20/11/2012 02:45:18 PM
- 1089 Views
I think RJ went out of his way to keep strength a bit of a mystery
20/11/2012 08:42:44 PM
- 1106 Views
Math gurus...Is it possible to find the missing variable...
21/11/2012 05:12:24 PM
- 1129 Views
the problem is that the Mean is not going to tell us much really
22/11/2012 02:55:03 AM
- 1172 Views
Re: the problem is that the Mean is not going to tell us much really
22/11/2012 03:15:33 AM
- 1499 Views
I do not think you can calculate the Mean without knowing the Units of Power
22/11/2012 03:53:59 AM
- 1251 Views