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Re: this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power DomA Send a noteboard - 20/11/2012 02:45:18 PM
Skill clearly sets the top 6 apart ... Ishamael, Lanfear, Demandred, Sammael, Graendal, Semirhage clearly had the best combination of Power, skill and savvy. Aginor and the others could have had more strength, but either skill or personality kept them from the highest rungs.



Perhaps they're all close in raw strength, and perhaps they're not so close as that. The fact you guys still argue over their strengths after 13 books is because we don't have enough information to be certain of anything. And one of the main reasons we don't is because the Chosen themselves tend to factor their raw strength advantages or disadvantages for much, much less than third age channellers whose knowledge of the OP is minimal and forcing them to rely on simpler tricks most often dependent on raw strength.

The Chosen come from an Age where personal angreal and mixed gender circles were common place. None of them is stupid enough to rely primarily on strength when they've learned to fight in a War where a woman like Lanfear might have to fight for her life against a much weaker underling who suddenly acquired an angreal. They've all learned to rely on their best skills.

Raw strengths comparisons don't come naturally to them the way it does for third age Aes Sedai. Some of them might be very close in raw strength, I tend to think there might be some gaps larger than we think, but I think the differences whatever they are aren't very apparent anyway, far less than among AS, because they all come from the same crucible of pre-Collapse full Aes Sedai training, while OP knowledge vary a very great deal more between third Age channelers (groups, ajah, individuals keep some of their discoveries secret). Not only that, but they've all fought in the same war, picked up a lot of the same tricks developed for destruction and fighting other channellers.

We see this reflected a lot in the series. It's in their vastly superior knowledge and skills the Chosen systematically glorify themselves with (and they're keener to compare their special skills, their non-OP related skills and weaknesses and their respective cunning than anything else), while among third Agers, it's the raw strength of the Forsaken they find amazing and intimidating... They push this to the point of absurdity, like believing that the Cleansing was the female Forsaken working together...

We see the Forsaken barely ever referring to their respective strengths. They know all thirteen have pretty much the same basic knowledge and training, and all of them have learned to use their best skills rather than rely on their strength. In the pre-Shadow days, they wouldn't have let their strength limit them, they simply had to use an angreal at need. Even Lanfear knows better than to count on a gap between her and Graendal, Moghedien and Mesaana, when that gap might be filled at any time by an hidden angreal.

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How many standard deviations is Lanfear - 15/11/2012 06:04:39 PM 2547 Views
Well... - 15/11/2012 07:02:45 PM 1553 Views
Hmm... - 15/11/2012 07:25:34 PM 1640 Views
see we CAN agree on stuff - 15/11/2012 07:56:12 PM 1491 Views
- 18/11/2012 08:37:22 PM 1345 Views
We've always been close with everything except the scale - 18/11/2012 10:29:07 PM 1372 Views
Re: - 18/11/2012 11:07:17 PM 1565 Views
Re: - 19/11/2012 05:16:00 AM 1404 Views
Re: - 19/11/2012 03:13:01 PM 1390 Views
They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5% - 19/11/2012 03:19:19 PM 1437 Views
Re: They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5% - 19/11/2012 04:01:43 PM 1603 Views
Re: They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5% - 19/11/2012 09:04:04 PM 1370 Views
Hmmm... - 20/11/2012 02:08:40 AM 1421 Views
Perhaps, but Egwene is also being a bit dramatic in the scene as she managed - 20/11/2012 04:28:57 AM 1413 Views
Nope... - 20/11/2012 03:13:13 PM 1479 Views
I believe she is being over dramatic - 20/11/2012 03:26:24 PM 1335 Views
Keep believing that... - 20/11/2012 03:30:14 PM 1473 Views
*shrugs* - 20/11/2012 03:49:10 PM 1453 Views
Tired and forkroot are the same now? - 20/11/2012 03:55:22 PM 1353 Views
No it's the literary device - 20/11/2012 04:04:28 PM 1466 Views
This is getting ridiculous... - 20/11/2012 04:43:13 PM 1326 Views
You are missing my point completely - 20/11/2012 04:50:46 PM 1252 Views
Impossible. Daigian is exactly 0.32SD below the mean - 19/11/2012 11:06:04 AM 1398 Views
You keep saying that, but it is either a linear or a non-linear distribution - 19/11/2012 09:09:32 PM 1476 Views
That's the whole point. Thanks for finally seeing it. - 19/11/2012 09:43:27 PM 1434 Views
keep believing that ... but you making up numbers isn't really relevant *NM* - 20/11/2012 04:29:44 AM 864 Views
Please show me a number that is made up. The 0.32SD for Daigian is a rule of statistics. - 20/11/2012 07:15:48 AM 1335 Views
Go read Fionwe's post about it *NM* - 20/11/2012 02:33:19 PM 876 Views
Is that before or after she started juicing? - 15/11/2012 11:04:14 PM 1397 Views
Wouldn't it be 1 in 105 million? - 21/11/2012 04:56:19 PM 1272 Views
Are you sure that it is a normal distribution? - 16/11/2012 04:21:02 PM 1438 Views
Ugh. I hate power level discussions. For real world applications, it should be kind of meaningless - 16/11/2012 10:28:49 PM 1335 Views
I don't really agree - 18/11/2012 08:40:53 PM 1313 Views
Perhaps, but we've seen that a MUCH weaker Channeler can win in a duel - 19/11/2012 09:13:48 PM 1345 Views
Re: Perhaps, but we've seen that a MUCH weaker Channeler can win in a duel - 20/11/2012 08:10:01 AM 1338 Views
probably ... Lanfear/Cyndane is clearly remarkably skilled - 20/11/2012 02:35:09 PM 1378 Views
Since I've proven that it's not a normal distribution in units of absolute strength, SDs don't apply - 17/11/2012 07:48:21 PM 1408 Views
You have proven nothing, except that you have an opinion *NM* - 18/11/2012 02:21:35 AM 849 Views
You simply don't get it. It is mathematically a fact. There is no opinion involved. - 18/11/2012 02:19:40 PM 1185 Views
Only because you've assigned numeric values. That you created. - 18/11/2012 02:40:51 PM 1369 Views
It doesn't matter what figure you use... - 18/11/2012 03:01:56 PM 1265 Views
What if Daigian is one third Lanfear's strength? - 18/11/2012 04:37:58 PM 1402 Views
We have a limit for Daigian's strength, as you well know. - 18/11/2012 05:41:49 PM 1326 Views
Are you kidding me? - 18/11/2012 09:07:38 PM 1475 Views
Sure you can - 18/11/2012 10:09:31 PM 1391 Views
Re: Sure you can - 18/11/2012 10:54:50 PM 1380 Views
You're right, though its 37.5% - 19/11/2012 12:21:29 AM 1345 Views
Oops, typo! - 19/11/2012 02:54:25 AM 1392 Views
Again, not possible, due to Daigian being just 0.3SD below the Mean - 19/11/2012 08:37:01 AM 1344 Views
Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 19/11/2012 04:05:12 PM 1254 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 19/11/2012 05:55:02 PM 1201 Views
Egwene is about as strong as Melaine and Amys combined - 19/11/2012 09:19:50 PM 1324 Views
Re: Egwene is about as strong as Melaine and Amys combined - 20/11/2012 02:11:26 AM 1407 Views
Forkroot in every case - 20/11/2012 04:32:26 AM 1324 Views
No! - 20/11/2012 03:15:16 PM 1339 Views
I'm not going to go re-read the books to you on this - 20/11/2012 03:39:46 PM 1319 Views
You need to read it for yourself, since you're completely confused. - 20/11/2012 03:54:26 PM 1327 Views
Not going to argue this with you. - 20/11/2012 04:09:44 PM 1238 Views
Your own example disproved your point... - 20/11/2012 04:39:25 PM 1377 Views
let's see, she's both asleep and would need hours to regain her strength - 20/11/2012 04:43:17 PM 1267 Views
Enough! - 20/11/2012 05:04:06 PM 1338 Views
LOL ... whatever. You go on believing that ... no one else sees it this way. *NM* - 20/11/2012 05:20:52 PM 836 Views
What a brilliant argument! - 20/11/2012 05:25:18 PM 1340 Views
this is why I refuse to continue this debate - 20/11/2012 05:31:11 PM 1302 Views
Re: Your own example disproved your point... - 20/11/2012 05:10:15 PM 1351 Views
Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than - 20/11/2012 05:26:31 PM 1352 Views
Re: Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than - 20/11/2012 05:31:50 PM 1339 Views
Re: Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than - 20/11/2012 05:42:53 PM 1308 Views
Excuse me? - 20/11/2012 05:28:48 PM 1397 Views
see we can agree on the relative strength of Egwene v. Forsaken - 20/11/2012 05:35:07 PM 1350 Views
??? - 20/11/2012 05:37:01 PM 1428 Views
2 middling sisters - 20/11/2012 05:45:27 PM 1357 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 20/11/2012 02:26:47 AM 1279 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 20/11/2012 09:03:40 AM 1329 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 20/11/2012 02:59:08 PM 1344 Views
None of this is backed by any evidence... - 20/11/2012 03:24:12 PM 1256 Views
who said Cadsuane was 1.5x Moiraine or more? - 20/11/2012 04:03:13 PM 1279 Views
Nope... - 20/11/2012 04:41:35 PM 1286 Views
wrong - 20/11/2012 04:48:50 PM 1250 Views
My bad. Mized up 1/3 and 2/3. - 20/11/2012 05:05:05 PM 1327 Views
gotcha *NM* - 20/11/2012 05:46:21 PM 808 Views
Better evidence? LOL! - 20/11/2012 03:18:55 PM 1329 Views
Huh? How did you come to that conclusion? - 20/11/2012 04:40:56 PM 1321 Views
Exactly *NM* - 20/11/2012 04:55:28 PM 1308 Views
BEcause Cadsuane is close on the heels of Egwene? - 20/11/2012 05:10:50 PM 1217 Views
I'm not arguing that. I agree that Cadsuane is pretty close to Egwene - 20/11/2012 05:50:34 PM 1381 Views
Re: Better evidence? LOL! - 20/11/2012 05:00:47 PM 1237 Views
Interesting, but let's go with your figures... - 19/11/2012 06:54:54 AM 1399 Views
Indeed - 19/11/2012 08:16:44 AM 1424 Views
Rand is sort of a special case - 20/11/2012 04:25:02 AM 1300 Views
Regarding Mesaana... - 20/11/2012 08:42:56 AM 1312 Views
You continue to mix two things - 20/11/2012 03:24:44 PM 1225 Views
No - 20/11/2012 04:54:19 PM 1483 Views
You are mistaken - 20/11/2012 05:04:40 PM 1281 Views
Yes she did Darius! - 20/11/2012 05:27:36 PM 1251 Views
Yet there is no duel - 20/11/2012 06:01:17 PM 1241 Views
Explain the .3xSD thing to me... - 19/11/2012 04:58:57 PM 1499 Views
Probably, but the AS have no idea what 37.5% means - 19/11/2012 02:59:26 AM 1272 Views
It's irrelevant - 19/11/2012 03:46:42 AM 1353 Views
Agreed. Daigian is the marker of the absolute bottom of Aes Sedai strength. - 19/11/2012 06:55:41 AM 1316 Views
Daigian - 19/11/2012 08:12:19 AM 1316 Views
It is a direct marker due to RJ's quote - 19/11/2012 08:50:26 AM 1367 Views
You missed my point - 19/11/2012 09:08:42 AM 1268 Views
Re: You missed my point - 19/11/2012 02:18:33 PM 1405 Views
Asmodean would never have made the comment about 13 weakest AS - 20/11/2012 04:41:11 AM 1290 Views
Re: Asmodean would never have made the comment about 13 weakest AS - 20/11/2012 09:07:49 AM 1251 Views
Which would make an average AS around a 30 - 20/11/2012 04:58:56 PM 1175 Views
Re: Sure you can - 19/11/2012 09:22:09 AM 1413 Views
Care to explain this... - 19/11/2012 05:06:28 PM 1207 Views
Indeed - 20/11/2012 07:16:37 AM 1422 Views
Explained far better than I ever could. Bravo. - 20/11/2012 07:30:29 AM 1296 Views
Well duh. - 20/11/2012 02:57:24 PM 1393 Views
Incorrect. - 20/11/2012 04:28:07 PM 1385 Views
No - 20/11/2012 04:44:16 PM 1360 Views
Re: No - 20/11/2012 04:48:36 PM 1336 Views
That depends... - 20/11/2012 05:18:46 PM 1204 Views
Re: That depends... - 20/11/2012 05:31:03 PM 1794 Views
You're integrating without lower limits... - 20/11/2012 02:55:06 PM 1333 Views
Re: You're integrating without lower limits... - 20/11/2012 04:37:57 PM 1366 Views
It matters. - 20/11/2012 05:22:40 PM 1371 Views
We are not talking about a normal distribution in any case - 20/11/2012 04:44:24 AM 1172 Views
Re: We are not talking about a normal distribution in any case - 20/11/2012 07:02:47 AM 1370 Views
You must tell me of this special math... - 20/11/2012 03:10:09 PM 1256 Views
Re: You must tell me of this special math... - 20/11/2012 04:29:40 PM 1317 Views
Morghase is a placeholder... - 20/11/2012 04:45:42 PM 1409 Views
Re: Morghase is a placeholder... - 20/11/2012 04:49:54 PM 1670 Views
Why? - 20/11/2012 05:23:29 PM 1337 Views
Re: Why? - 20/11/2012 05:36:45 PM 1644 Views
Well... - 18/11/2012 08:43:59 PM 1383 Views
Re: Well... - 19/11/2012 03:40:44 PM 1345 Views
Wow. - 19/11/2012 03:53:47 PM 1383 Views
Re: Wow. - 19/11/2012 04:26:09 PM 1417 Views
Some points - 19/11/2012 06:03:00 PM 1432 Views
Well then you're both wrong I'm afraid - 19/11/2012 06:09:36 PM 1317 Views
Re: Well then you're both wrong I'm afraid - 19/11/2012 07:42:58 PM 1205 Views
this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power - 20/11/2012 04:51:20 AM 1377 Views
Agreed - 20/11/2012 08:13:37 AM 1439 Views
probably - 20/11/2012 06:18:45 PM 1273 Views
Re: this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power - 20/11/2012 02:45:18 PM 1297 Views
I think RJ went out of his way to keep strength a bit of a mystery - 20/11/2012 08:42:44 PM 1332 Views
Indeed... - 21/11/2012 05:44:18 PM 1244 Views
I agree - 22/11/2012 01:43:02 AM 1525 Views
Math gurus...Is it possible to find the missing variable... - 21/11/2012 05:12:24 PM 1321 Views
the problem is that the Mean is not going to tell us much really - 22/11/2012 02:55:03 AM 1397 Views
Re: the problem is that the Mean is not going to tell us much really - 22/11/2012 03:15:33 AM 1677 Views
I do not think you can calculate the Mean without knowing the Units of Power - 22/11/2012 03:53:59 AM 1461 Views
Re: Math gurus...Is it possible to find the missing variable... - 23/11/2012 02:59:12 PM 1783 Views
Disregard this post *NM* - 23/11/2012 03:02:24 PM 1080 Views

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