Wheel of Time Messageboard: Aginors defeat could be a result of multiple factors. So can Ishmaels by Onarishma

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Aginors defeat could be a result of multiple factors. So can Ishmaels Onarishma Send a noteboard - 07/12/2012 01:24:18 PM

Have there been any established strengths for Logain, Narishma, and Flinn? I'm on Knife of Dreams in my re-read, and it just hit me that Narishma is described here as weaker than Merise, which surprised me...though he's not reached his potential, yet. Similarly, I'd be interested to see where Taim ranks, as well. I always thought of Logain and him as being about the same level, but is there any credence to that assumption?

(If I had to make guesses based on my current feelings, I'd rank them as such:

Narishma: 20?
Flinn: 40
Logain/Taim: 80

Does that make any sense at all?)

Theorize/correct away.

We don't know much about Narishma and Flinn. Rand sometimes says how they are becoming more powerful but he says once that no Ash'aman is close in power to him (though they are both probably not at full strength). Flinn is stronger than Gedwyn and Rochaid, both of whom think that together they could fight as strongly as Rand.

He says later that Logain and Taim are close to as strong as him, so they're both at least on 90 or higher.

I figured that they were both below the level of Aginor/Sammael, and certainly below Demandred. The reason I say this is that Rand thinks of Taim as being close to his strength in LoC, and he didn't hit his potential until the Cleansing.

The thing with Flinn, now that I think about it, is that he MUST be stronger than 40. He's in a circle with two AS at the Cleansing, (I don't remember who, exactly, but I figure they're both slightly above average for AS strength, so let's say 20 each) and with the linking penalty, their combined strengths would still have to be above 90 to give credence to Demandred's thought that their weaving is as strong as his own. So maybe Flinn's closer to a 55? Maybe his strength is part of why he's the best at Healing that we've seen yet (which we know, at least seems to be the case, since Cadsuane considers Samitsu "the best alive at Healing—at least until the appearance of Damer Flinn" (CoT 671) and Cadsuane knows Nynaeve as well).

Strength and Talent do not necessarily go together ... Damer has a very powerful Healing Talent, that doesn't make him stronger in the Power. As we saw when Siuan was stilled and healed, her Talent with Healing remained the same. Damer, however, is one of Rand's go-to channelers which lends credence to his being among the stronger men in the series ... I'd say he's a male equivalent to a Cadsuane or at the very least Moiraine/Lelaine and company (strongest AS). Again, it's speculation, but there isn't much to go on. I also think Naeff can be placed near Flinn as we know he is weaker than Nynaeve, but probably not by 1/2 as he could match her effects due to his flow affinity ... odds are he is stronger than a woman like Moiraine/Lelaine, but likely no stronger than Cadsuane or perhaps Egwene.

Narishma is likely already stronger than Merise IMO ... the quote around it makes it seem that they are at least close at the time of the comments (she wouldn't worry about it if he was considerably weaker than she is) and Narishma will likely continue to grow as he has been channeling for such a short period of time. Because of Taim's initial excitement over finding him and Rand sending him after Callandor in Tear (there was a prophesy about "he who draws it out will follow after" or some such) it has been theorized that he may end up as strong as one of the Forsaken ... total speculation, but not impossible to believe IMO.

As for Taim and Logain, I agree with Sidious on this point. They are both well within the strength range of the Forsaken males as they are both close to Rand. As for the timing of when it's noted, that is a bit hard to use as an argument since in EoTW Rand was already as strong as Aginor and in TGH he matched Ishamael, but in TFoH and LOC he's very close to Asmodean, who is likely one of the weaker male Forsaken ... this is one of the reasons I think the Forsaken are all very close in strength, Rand has been at near his maximum strength from nearly the beginning of the series and is pretty much a "special case".

e
In all the early books it is likely that Rand's battles took place in TAR or someplace similar in nature. In addition to that its likely you can't burn out from a well. Regardless of Aginors greasy remains. I personally think Aginor over drew when Rand took the Eye from him and then he reached for saidin trying to fill himself. In TAR Rand wouldn't need to be as strong. I think this is the same reason most Forsaken meetings take place there.

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I really hate to bring up strength in the OP, but thankfully it doesn't regard Egwene or any women. DREWRULESWOT! - 04/12/2012 06:01:45 AM 1619 Views

My thoughts Sidious - 04/12/2012 07:15:44 AM 1014 Views

90 is REALLY high DREWRULESWOT! - 04/12/2012 07:25:15 AM 984 Views

Couple of things ... **reminder that this is a lot of speculation** darius_sedai - 04/12/2012 04:29:50 PM 930 Views

Narishma is definitely stronger, you're right. DREWRULESWOT! - 07/12/2012 03:00:53 AM 887 Views

He was stronger than Aginor in order to channel the power of the Eye darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 03:00:10 PM 816 Views

No I don't think so Sidious - 07/12/2012 04:13:48 PM 751 Views

I'd say more than 80 darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 07:07:32 PM 708 Views

81 then Sidious - 07/12/2012 08:11:34 PM 635 Views

and that's just YOUR theory Sidius

darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 09:13:42 PM 729 Views

Re: and that's just YOUR theory Sidius

Sidious - 07/12/2012 10:14:53 PM 751 Views

there were more like MILLIONS of Forsaken during these times darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 10:30:34 PM 686 Views

Re: and that's just YOUR theory Sidius

RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/12/2012 08:44:51 PM 528 Views

Aginors defeat could be a result of multiple factors. So can Ishmaels Onarishma - 07/12/2012 01:24:18 PM 755 Views

Regardless, Rand was clearly in the same strength category when Aginor and he faced off darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 03:03:04 PM 722 Views

I disagree. Onarishma - 07/12/2012 06:55:43 PM 651 Views

Aginor burned out trying to use the Eye in the real world darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 07:12:44 PM 661 Views

Re: Aginor burned out trying to use the Eye in the real world Onarishma - 07/12/2012 07:51:37 PM 649 Views

he faced Asmodean strength for strength before Rahvin darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 09:23:42 PM 749 Views

Just to be a bitch Sidious - 07/12/2012 10:17:11 PM 590 Views

you don't actually have to tell us all you are a bitch

darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 10:36:25 PM 759 Views

*NM* Sidious - 08/12/2012 06:22:49 AM 615 Views

He didn't face Asmodean he chased him and wrestled him over a sa'angreal. Onarishma - 10/12/2012 11:16:18 PM 786 Views

Asmo hurled plenty of stuff at Rand during the "Chase" it wasnt all that much different darius_sedai - 11/12/2012 03:16:36 AM 668 Views

I disagree with your plenty cause no one was TRYING to crush him. *NM* Onarishma - 11/12/2012 07:13:12 PM 432 Views

as I said before ... your interpretations are yours to have ... as are mine. *NM* darius_sedai - 11/12/2012 09:16:36 PM 360 Views

think youre misjudgjng the benefits of the link. they dont have to add up to 90. Onarishma - 07/12/2012 12:34:59 PM 715 Views

There is also no why to tell if Flinn hit Demandred with all the strength available to him either darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 03:05:38 PM 722 Views

the "circle" was stronger but the individuals weren't *NM* Onarishma - 07/12/2012 06:58:38 PM 466 Views

that's what I just said *NM* darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 07:23:34 PM 396 Views

that was not clear *NM* Onarishma - 07/12/2012 07:43:54 PM 486 Views

*shrug* darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 09:25:00 PM 596 Views

Re: *shrug* Onarishma - 10/12/2012 11:27:42 PM 702 Views

If I had said the individuals in the circle added to Dmandreds strength perhaps darius_sedai - 11/12/2012 03:28:23 AM 750 Views

in the context of this discussion you did not distinguish between the effective strength and Onarishma - 11/12/2012 07:10:48 PM 649 Views

whatever ... didn't think it was necessary ... and with that I'm done darius_sedai - 11/12/2012 09:16:03 PM 622 Views

Onarishma - 17/12/2012 11:22:55 PM 862 Views

About Rand's strength... an important quote is being ignored: fionwe1987 - 08/12/2012 12:37:38 AM 848 Views

Perhaps darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 01:01:21 AM 670 Views

Re: Perhaps fionwe1987 - 08/12/2012 02:06:39 AM 733 Views

Like I said ... Could be darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 02:33:43 AM 723 Views

I disagree... fionwe1987 - 08/12/2012 04:53:09 AM 662 Views

Re: I disagree... darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 05:20:08 AM 610 Views

I disagree again! fionwe1987 - 08/12/2012 05:49:15 AM 679 Views

Probably darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 02:46:15 PM 715 Views

Re: Probably fionwe1987 - 09/12/2012 07:51:59 PM 697 Views

Not really darius_sedai - 09/12/2012 10:13:07 PM 622 Views

Re: Not really fionwe1987 - 10/12/2012 01:05:54 AM 645 Views

Re: Not really darius_sedai - 13/12/2012 03:58:48 PM 726 Views

I don't think the Forsaken are good examples Sidious - 08/12/2012 06:18:45 AM 699 Views

We're essentially saying the same thing now darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 02:37:17 PM 623 Views

Re: I don't think the Forsaken are good examples RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/12/2012 08:08:21 PM 608 Views

Always thought the forsaken didn't really know much about Rand TheCrownless - 08/12/2012 02:38:08 AM 654 Views

And they had plenty of spies around him and clearly knew that he managed darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 02:43:15 AM 676 Views

Re: And they had plenty of spies around him and clearly knew that he managed TheCrownless - 08/12/2012 05:34:54 AM 640 Views

Who can say. Graendal wraps them so deep in compulsion that she can dig darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 05:42:39 AM 712 Views

I don't think they could have had a clear idea of his strength eary in the series... Narg - 08/12/2012 09:34:36 AM 821 Views

Re: I don't think they could have had a clear idea of his strength eary in the series... darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 02:54:08 PM 630 Views

Oops, double post. *NM* Narg - 08/12/2012 09:34:36 AM 488 Views

Re: About Rand's strength... an important quote is being ignored: Dunstan - 11/12/2012 11:36:51 PM 691 Views

Re: Rand v Aginor Watcher - 16/12/2012 01:46:08 PM 660 Views

Not a bad theory and I've read it before darius_sedai - 16/12/2012 07:42:31 PM 615 Views

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<quote id="268257">
<quote id="267978"><quote id="267972"><quote id="267970"><quote id="267966">Have there been any established strengths for Logain, Narishma, and Flinn? I'm on Knife of Dreams in my re-read, and it just hit me that Narishma is described here as weaker than Merise, which surprised me...though he's not reached his potential, yet. Similarly, I'd be interested to see where Taim ranks, as well. I always thought of Logain and him as being about the same level, but is there any credence to that assumption?

(If I had to make guesses based on my current feelings, I'd rank them as such:

Narishma: 20?
Flinn: 40
Logain/Taim: 80

Does that make any sense at all?)

Theorize/correct away.</quote>

He says later that Logain and Taim are close to as strong as him, so they're both at least on 90 or higher.</quote>

The thing with Flinn, now that I think about it, is that he MUST be stronger than 40. He's in a circle with two AS at the Cleansing, (I don't remember who, exactly, but I figure they're both slightly above average for AS strength, so let's say 20 each) and with the linking penalty, their combined strengths would still have to be above 90 to give credence to Demandred's thought that their weaving is as strong as his own. So maybe Flinn's closer to a 55? Maybe his strength is part of why he's the best at Healing that we've seen yet (which we know, at least seems to be the case, since Cadsuane considers Samitsu "the best alive at Healing—at least until the appearance of Damer Flinn" (CoT 671) and Cadsuane knows Nynaeve as well).</quote>

Narishma is likely already stronger than Merise IMO ... the quote around it makes it seem that they are at least close at the time of the comments (she wouldn't worry about it if he was considerably weaker than she is) and Narishma will likely continue to grow as he has been channeling for such a short period of time.  Because of Taim's initial excitement over finding him and Rand sending him after Callandor in Tear (there was a prophesy about "he who draws it out will follow after" or some such) it has been theorized that he may end up as strong as one of the Forsaken ... total speculation, but not impossible to believe IMO.

As for Taim and Logain, I agree with Sidious on this point.  They are both well within the strength range of the Forsaken males as they are both close to Rand.  As for the timing of when it's noted, that is a bit hard to use as an argument since in EoTW Rand was already as strong as Aginor and in TGH he matched Ishamael, but in TFoH and LOC he's very close to Asmodean, who is likely one of the weaker male Forsaken ... this is one of the reasons I think the Forsaken are all very close in strength, Rand has been at near his maximum strength from nearly the beginning of the series and is pretty much a "special case".</quote>
 e
In all the early books it is likely that Rand's battles took place in TAR or someplace similar in nature.  In addition to that its likely you can't burn out from a well.  Regardless of Aginors greasy remains. I personally think Aginor over drew when Rand took the Eye from him and then he reached for saidin trying to fill himself.   In TAR Rand wouldn't need to be as strong.  I think this is the same reason most Forsaken meetings take place there.

</quote>

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