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I don't think the Forsaken are good examples Sidious Send a noteboard - 08/12/2012 06:18:45 AM
I don't think you need SUPREME skill to be Egwene level and pose a threat to the Foresaken. You might need that level of skill to be able to guarantee your survival every single time, but not if you want to pose a reasonable threat.

I think you're shooting your own argument about the importance of strength in the foot by insisting you need enormous skill to overcome the strength gap between Egwene and the Foresaken. Demandred would be content with a mere angreal then, to challenge Rand. He wants a sa'angreal, though, even though he's just a little less skilled than Rand.


I'm not making an argument about the strength gap. The Forsaken are also among the most skilled Channelers who ever lived. Coupled with being among the strongest channelers who ever lived means if you are weaker than they are you must be MORE skilled than they are in order to stand a chance. Egwene level is clearly a step lower than Forsaken, thus for someone of that level to compete with an individual such as Graendal or Demandred they would need to be supremely skilled or they would get destroyed pretty quickly. It's akin to a boxing match where you are already giving up size and reach to you opponent, if you also give up skill you are heading for pain.

Moghedien and Asmodean showed a shocking lack of skill, but that may not be too surprising if you consider one was essentially an investment banker and the other a musician. Not exactly trained for dueling and the odds of them having to face off against an equal or greater force in their own Age would have been slim. And neither of them initiated the duels so they started off on the defensive from the beginning.

With that said even someone like Nynaeve who is on par with the Forsaken would need the skill to match them or to truly be a threat. Graendal herself makes note of it in TOM when she decides she must kill Nynaeve if Nynaeve has figured out how to unravel Compulsion ... Suddenly Nynaeve became a skilled opponent and thus a threat. Graendal had just as clearly been keeping tabs on Nynaeve looking for signs of such skills.

Mesaana says much the same of Egwene when she tells Sheriam that Egwene must be removed as Amyrlin. She isn't directly speaking of OP matters, but she acknowledged that Egwene was not what they wanted in the role ... They wanted a girl not a woman. It's a clear indication that the Forsaken do not wish to face off against opponents with any type of skill. This theme has gotten more pronounced throughout the series as the remaining Forsaken have hunkered down into their tasks. They are much more cunning and skillful in their attacks ... Even the ones that fall apart.

And of course Demandred wants the advantage of a sa'angreal ... That's the variable he has the most control over! Why face a possible loss if you can magnify your strength by 10x and not worry about LTTs superior skill ... There is a point when overwhelming strength differential makes any duel a moot point.


I don't really think that you can exceed the Forsaken in skill. They come from an Age where they were really well trained and they had a hundred years during the Collapse to alter it to destruction, and another ten to use it fully. Apart from that, they're too well rounded off as channelers. Semirhage's offhand weave to dissolve Cabriana's clothes is so complex that it stirs fear in the Aes Sedai. There is such a big gap. This isn't mindless Forsaken worshipping - I think the same of LTT and anyone else who suddenly appears in the Third Age. Maybe some herbalist in the destroyed future discovers the cure for cancer, but that doesn't make them as informed and skilled as a modern doctor.

I have no problem believing that Egwene with a lot of her skills and Talents could fight Alivia and stand her ground - even win. However, Alivia also doesn't need to be as skilled to win. She enters the fight with a heavy advantage. Merely sending a high powered shield after Egwene will cause a great deal of havoc. The more strength Egwene has to put into slicing Alivia's flows, the less she has for an offensive, so she would need to plan.

As for the Asmodean/Rand and Moghedien/Nynaeve fights, I think we're a little unfair. In all those battles the Forsaken were suddenly matched directly in strength. It's like being a martial arts master and someone is suddenly on you and you are grappling hands. It's difficult to be impressive if your hands are locked. Demandred probably had a similar experience - he had to use all his strength to slice Flinn's flows and thereafter he spent the rest of the time using his power to avoid death. If you can get a strong channeler on the back foot then they have no time to use their skill to weave anything. It becomes a brawl. In all the Forsaken battles at the Cleansing where the Forsaken struck first i.e. Graendal, Aran'gar, Cyndane - the Light were killed or injured because they could use their skill. Verin was almost instantly overwhelmed by reversing alone.
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This message last edited by Sidious on 08/12/2012 at 06:21:09 AM
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I really hate to bring up strength in the OP, but thankfully it doesn't regard Egwene or any women. - 04/12/2012 06:01:45 AM 1621 Views
My thoughts - 04/12/2012 07:15:44 AM 1014 Views
90 is REALLY high - 04/12/2012 07:25:15 AM 984 Views
Couple of things ... **reminder that this is a lot of speculation** - 04/12/2012 04:29:50 PM 931 Views
Narishma is definitely stronger, you're right. - 07/12/2012 03:00:53 AM 889 Views
He was stronger than Aginor in order to channel the power of the Eye - 07/12/2012 03:00:10 PM 817 Views
No I don't think so - 07/12/2012 04:13:48 PM 752 Views
I'd say more than 80 - 07/12/2012 07:07:32 PM 709 Views
81 then - 07/12/2012 08:11:34 PM 635 Views
and that's just YOUR theory Sidius - 07/12/2012 09:13:42 PM 729 Views
Re: and that's just YOUR theory Sidius - 07/12/2012 10:14:53 PM 751 Views
there were more like MILLIONS of Forsaken during these times - 07/12/2012 10:30:34 PM 686 Views
Re: and that's just YOUR theory Sidius - 28/12/2012 08:44:51 PM 528 Views
Aginors defeat could be a result of multiple factors. So can Ishmaels - 07/12/2012 01:24:18 PM 756 Views
Regardless, Rand was clearly in the same strength category when Aginor and he faced off - 07/12/2012 03:03:04 PM 722 Views
I disagree. - 07/12/2012 06:55:43 PM 651 Views
Aginor burned out trying to use the Eye in the real world - 07/12/2012 07:12:44 PM 661 Views
Re: Aginor burned out trying to use the Eye in the real world - 07/12/2012 07:51:37 PM 650 Views
he faced Asmodean strength for strength before Rahvin - 07/12/2012 09:23:42 PM 749 Views
Just to be a bitch - 07/12/2012 10:17:11 PM 590 Views
you don't actually have to tell us all you are a bitch - 07/12/2012 10:36:25 PM 760 Views
*NM* - 08/12/2012 06:22:49 AM 615 Views
think youre misjudgjng the benefits of the link. they dont have to add up to 90. - 07/12/2012 12:34:59 PM 717 Views
There is also no why to tell if Flinn hit Demandred with all the strength available to him either - 07/12/2012 03:05:38 PM 722 Views
the "circle" was stronger but the individuals weren't *NM* - 07/12/2012 06:58:38 PM 467 Views
that's what I just said *NM* - 07/12/2012 07:23:34 PM 396 Views
that was not clear *NM* - 07/12/2012 07:43:54 PM 487 Views
*shrug* - 07/12/2012 09:25:00 PM 597 Views
Re: *shrug* - 10/12/2012 11:27:42 PM 702 Views
If I had said the individuals in the circle added to Dmandreds strength perhaps - 11/12/2012 03:28:23 AM 752 Views
in the context of this discussion you did not distinguish between the effective strength and - 11/12/2012 07:10:48 PM 650 Views
whatever ... didn't think it was necessary ... and with that I'm done - 11/12/2012 09:16:03 PM 622 Views
- 17/12/2012 11:22:55 PM 863 Views
About Rand's strength... an important quote is being ignored: - 08/12/2012 12:37:38 AM 848 Views
Perhaps - 08/12/2012 01:01:21 AM 670 Views
Re: Perhaps - 08/12/2012 02:06:39 AM 734 Views
Like I said ... Could be - 08/12/2012 02:33:43 AM 724 Views
I disagree... - 08/12/2012 04:53:09 AM 663 Views
Re: I disagree... - 08/12/2012 05:20:08 AM 610 Views
I disagree again! - 08/12/2012 05:49:15 AM 679 Views
Probably - 08/12/2012 02:46:15 PM 715 Views
Re: Probably - 09/12/2012 07:51:59 PM 698 Views
Not really - 09/12/2012 10:13:07 PM 623 Views
Re: Not really - 10/12/2012 01:05:54 AM 645 Views
Re: Not really - 13/12/2012 03:58:48 PM 726 Views
I don't think the Forsaken are good examples - 08/12/2012 06:18:45 AM 700 Views
We're essentially saying the same thing now - 08/12/2012 02:37:17 PM 623 Views
Re: I don't think the Forsaken are good examples - 28/12/2012 08:08:21 PM 608 Views
Always thought the forsaken didn't really know much about Rand - 08/12/2012 02:38:08 AM 655 Views
And they had plenty of spies around him and clearly knew that he managed - 08/12/2012 02:43:15 AM 676 Views
Re: And they had plenty of spies around him and clearly knew that he managed - 08/12/2012 05:34:54 AM 640 Views
Who can say. Graendal wraps them so deep in compulsion that she can dig - 08/12/2012 05:42:39 AM 712 Views
Oops, double post. *NM* - 08/12/2012 09:34:36 AM 488 Views
Re: About Rand's strength... an important quote is being ignored: - 11/12/2012 11:36:51 PM 691 Views
Re: Rand v Aginor - 16/12/2012 01:46:08 PM 661 Views
Not a bad theory and I've read it before - 16/12/2012 07:42:31 PM 615 Views

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