From the character’s POV none but the Forsaken really know or understand that this is the case. For the last 3000+ years it has been a female channeler based system with almost all knowledge of how saidin worked in relation to saidar. Merise has no perspective on “effective strength” all she can sense is the amount of power she feels while in a circle with Narishma. Thus we are talking about raw strength
You are the only one talking about “effective strength” … none of the characters involved have a clue about the difference in “raw” and “effective” strength. Before mixed circles were rediscovered, all an Aes Sedai would know about a male would be his effective strength because all she could see was his channeling effects. So in her mind if he could do anything she could and she was a level 17 then he too would be a level 17 … even though we know as readers he is almost certainly stronger.

Yes, as I also stated. The point here is that we don’t know if the proportion of dexterity is consistent from level to level. The way you are making statements it seems you believe that there is always going to be an dexterity increase for every woman that will make her effectively +6 levels from her saidar strength (thus Daigian would be equivalent to a man of 39 strength). I disagree that we have enough information to make that statement. The way I see it is that a woman will get an advantage, but that could be fluid based on the individual and how much natural dexterity she was born with (could be regardless of strength, or there could be a correlation). Daigian, might be as effective as a level 37 man or only as effective as a level 42 man. I will agree that she is almost 100% certainly going to be more effective than a level 45 man though.

Moiraine could light a small fire and do other tiny tasks, Morgase moved a scarf, more than Androl could manage with piles of dirt. He could not weave enough air to make scissors strong enough to cut leather. He ended up using tiny gateways to do the work.

Clearly these things require almost no strength, Androl was deliberately portrayed to be basically useless in all channeling functions outside of gateways, Taim’s cronies all made fun of him for only being effective with gateways. Perrin’s assement of Sorilea’s flame is irrelevant, he’s a non -channeler and has no clue if, as is likely the case, Sorilea is extremely weak in Fire. She managed to impress Cadsuane with her skill later when she taught her the weave for gateways.

No, I’m arguing that you can’t assume that there is a constant to show us that a level 13 man is always the same as a level 19 woman in effect. I do think it’s fairly obvious that any woman and any man often have specialties that make effects they produce remarkable regardless of their strength level. Ashmanaille is on level 22 and seemingly can Travel on her own, despite the note that 19 is the minimum. Talent trumps strength in many cases (Androl shows us this is true for men too), flow affinity for Earth showed us that Karen Strang and Leane could make cuendillar much more effectively than vastly stronger women. It’s all inconclusive to mapping an individual’s strength.

To be honest I suspect he’s actually weaker than Aviendha too, he equaled her feat because he is exceptional with Air, it’s mentioned pretty much every time he appears on screen and is clearly meant to indicate that his flow affinity is exceptional as well as rare for men. Again, I think this is meant to be along the lines of Egwene’s strength in Earth or Nynaeve’s Healing Talent. We have conclusive quotes telling us he is less than level 4 (Nynaeve’s current strength), nothing more that can be accurately measured IMO.

No worries, but do try and remember who you are discussing this with … I’m not Shannow! I do believe that the Aes Sedai where much more powerful than some on here like to believe  and I believe that the strength listing we now have proves that out.

See my comment above about character POVs and not understanding effectiveness …
I’d say that most of this uncertainty is because they are so new to circles together. Do you think that every time they linked he drew his maximum power? Rand couldn’t be certain if Taim was drawing his maximum only that he didn’t “sense strain”. Since Narishma would have been in control of the circle there is little way Merise could tell unless he had need to draw more power and she noticed it.


Which supports what I’ve been telling you all along, there is nothing to show that “effectiveness” is a constant based on comparative strengths. It is also true that RJ stated that Taim and Demandred were never meant to be the same character … forgive me for being a bit skeptical about RJ quotes that have no supporting evidence in the books or the Companion.

RJ stated that there were 6 levels of male strength above the maximum female strength. He made no reference that there is a direct +6 level correlation between men and women. Just because Lanfear is as effective as Ishamael does not automatically mean that Mesaana was as effective as Demandred. You are making that decision arbitrarily based on a single data point. To be clear, it’s possible that this is the case, but I do not believe we have enough information to prove the point, even if it’s a reasonable assumption.

Which, as I state above, is possible, but we do not have anything to prove that out. Dexterity could be just like strength and vary by individual.

He’s referring to the number of men who would be strong enough to be Aes Sedai, otherwise the % would not change the Strength level for consideration would (i.e. he would have said a man would need to be Level 39 to be effective enough to become Aes Sedai, instead, he pointed out that there would just be more men with the requisite strength.

Actually we are told that men “can be considerably stronger than women but dexterity makes their effects similar” (I’m paraphrasing here). Demandred is 7 levels higher than Graendal and by her own admission one of the most skilled me of the Age. Yet she is effectively his equal for all intents and purposes. Perhaps she is more dexterous than Lanfear and thus as effective as a ++2 man instead of a ++3 man (she’s certainly more effective than Aran’gar was).

I agree with all of this … it’s one more reason why I don’t think we can definitively say that a man who can Travel would automatically = Level 13 when it’s explicitly stated that Level 19 is the Strength required to make a gateway, talents and circles aside.
gateway. A portal created by channeling for the purpose of Traveling or Skimming. It took considerable strength to create a gateway, or, as in Androl’s case, proficiency in the Talent of Traveling. The minimum strength required for making a gateway of useful size, that is, large enough to walk through, was 19(7). The minimum strength required to make any gateway at all out of a circle was 21(9).

Potentially, but again, there is no way to say if there is even a linear scale for dexterity, could be Moghedien has poor dexterity for a woman and is only as effective as a ++6 male instead of a ++4 man, which would explain why she was so afraid of the men’s strength (note she pointed out how strong the men where, not how “effective” they were.

Well, RJ did like to talk like an Aes Sedai to the fans 
I think that’s one possibility, which is slightly supported by the fact that weaker women, in general, spent much more time in training than stronger women. But I don’t think we have anywhere close to the level of information necessary to assume anything regarding “effectiveness” … certainly not that you can simply add +6 levels to a woman’s strength level to figure out a man’s actual strength.

1. This isn’t actually true … someone on the Tor site (I think) actually mapped the maths out and found it to be inaccurate based on what RJ claimed. Women in the middle flattened out in terms of their longevity , while men did not, longevity bonus is NOT consistent based on the information we have available.
2. Again, this is not the case. Read that quote again, RJ is making a statement on the number of men who would be at 45 or higher strength, not that they would actually need to be stronger to become AS
3. You are making my point for me! There is absolutely nothing to point out that Dexterity is a constant or linear factor it could very well vary by woman with a maximum increase that makes the strongest woman roughly equivalent to the strongest man. There is no reason to believe that a Level 3 woman might not be roughly equivalent to a ++1 man if she was more dexterous than a Level 1 woman.