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mostly agree darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM

Fionwe, I see nothing in Dom's conclusions that outweigh the stated comments in the Companion about strength level to make a gateway. Especially because of the way the Gateway entry was worded in the Companion, specifically naming a MAN just before listing the minimum strength. There are too many nuances to the Power to make a blanket statement such as you insist upon. Starting with the fact that men and women Travel in different ways using different flows. It could be as simple as men don't need to be as strong to Travel.



It's likely that no Ash'aman is nearly as skilled as any Aes Sedai as the most senior of their member has channeled for less time than any novice. That said, AS don't know squat about saidin and vice versa... it's likely all the circles were completely inefficient at melding the two Powers.

I agree here ... Flinn was likely given charge of his circle because the others had little/no combat experience, despite having much more experience in the Power than he did. He's also shown that he's got a certain affinity with the Power (i.e. he discovered Healing Stilling). But my point was really about strength of the circles being higher than we previously assumed.


It proves nothing, and it's absurd to think that ALL the quotes on this issue are incorrect, especially from people who actually know how strong they all are. We know for a fact that the Companion doesn't know how strong Cadsuane is, and there are several other potential mess ups like Rahvin. I would go as far to say that the Companion should not be considered canon on several issues, as well as the last few books of the series. I think it's a very valid point stating that the original author had no part in the verification of these facts, and clearly many of them have been messed up. For instance, Graendal with her angreal fought a few average Aes Sedai and killed one, and yet she managed to hold her own in the Last Battle against an onslought that included Cadsuane AND Talaan, and without her angreal. It's completely absurd and BS did less than basic research into the OP before he wrote his part. There are many other OP errors (Taim can't be shielded by will alone, for instance) in the last few books, and his answers to fans have also made me cringe in the past. I'm sorry if it sounds bitter but I suspect you two both agree that RJ's legacy has been handled horribly since his death.

Cadsuane's angreal logically makes her a ++1. She could deflect the power of any attack that hit her, and there were at least two ++2's going for her.

It's likely that two AS fall well short of a ++1 - we have actually seen Rand squash two at the same time like flies while feeling dazed, and with shields no less. Lews Therin himself says that he can handle three women if they aren't too strong, and one must be Forsaken strength to make his life difficult. That is highly similar to Egwene's statement that she could not overwhelm a Forsaken linked to Romanda and Lelaine, considering all three of them are weaker than even Moghedien. We also know from Liandrin that it will take about three of them to smother Moghedien.

We know that Amys' strength is vague in the series - one quote placing her alongside Moiraine, the other alongside Sheriam. I see nothing ridiculous about Egwene being able to overwhelm the two if she has a strength of 80 and they are at 40-50 each.

We also know that everyone has horribly underestimated the skill of the Forsaken. Alivia is stronger than Cyndane in raw strength alone, and even with a strong angreal and many protective ter'angreal she barely escaped with her life. I have strong doubts whether we can make any conclusions from the Cleansing. We only had a glimpse of it - we know from RJ that Semirhage also fought some of the circles, for instance. It's possible that Semirhage killed Eben or Kumira - it's chaos that we witnessed through a keyhole. We also don't know how powerful these mixed circles are, but it seems like the amplification is substantial.


I would say that most of the strength listings in the Companion are probably directly from RJs notes, they mostly read like he was repeating a basic formula for each Aes Sedai he wanted to include ... nearly always including strength, place of birth, year born, year they went to the Tower, years as a Novice, years as an Accepted and the year she achieved the Shawl. There are a few that might be misstated or from an older scale (i.e. Rhavin died prior to the new scale being used so he may have never been "updated" to ++2 or ++3) I suspect Kumira is a typo and meant to be level 44 rather than 24 given that she was described as "barely stronger than Daigian" and as the weakest Aes Sedai, next to Daigian, with Cadsuane's entourage, yet we know that Rosara Medrano (level 32), Shahal Comanli (level 34) and Silvane Redfor (level 33) were all with the group and are clearly weaker than Kumira's stated strength of level 24.

I think most of the time the characters in a given scene are speaking somewhat correctly. However, I don't think any of the male/female strength comparisons are very accurate, based on lack of knowledge ... Egwene is certainly wrong in her estimate that with Romanda and Lelaine the wouldn't match a male Forsaken, and Moiraine would have only been correct in her estimation if, as is likely, Aviendha was well below her eventual strength of 11.

Seems to me that 2 level 17 or 18 women are probably in the range of a match for a ++1 male in terms of raw strength, but without a scale or knowing the difference between levels it's really impossible to say. but this does work if you assume a 72 point scale and about a 3% reduction in strength from each level. I know some of you will think that's insane, but given that level 19 is considered Strong for Aes Sedai and there are only 6 levels of Aes Sedai strength higher (with 20+ Aes Sedai levels below) this seems plausible.

None of this will ever work out perfectly, but you can put a little effort into this and come fairly close

Level 18 would be about a 36 on a 72 point scale, roughly 1/2 a ++1
Level 8 would be about 48 on this scale, which, if Aviendha was roughly Daigian's strength at the time of the quote about matching a Female Forsaken, would make she and Egwene roughly the same as a level 1 ... of course Aviendha was probably a bit stronger than that and it's possible Egwene was still below her potential at this time so maybe they were level 12 and level 35. Or perhaps Moiraine simply believed the Female Forsaken were as strong as the males since she had no real way of knowing how strong they were thus Aviendha could have been more like a level 20 with Egwene at 10-12 and it would still make some sense.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3172 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 873 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 847 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 983 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 894 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 991 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 997 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1177 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 837 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 966 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1024 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 952 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1043 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 987 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1143 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1092 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1114 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 914 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1152 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 968 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 847 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1110 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 964 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1064 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1127 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 915 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1053 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 921 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 843 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 872 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 871 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 905 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 950 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 864 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1064 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 885 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 837 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 867 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 552 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 911 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 935 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 839 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 876 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 854 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 601 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 884 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 848 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1048 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 920 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 933 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 984 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 979 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 917 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 920 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 990 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 825 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 846 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1039 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 894 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 969 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1013 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 842 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 877 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 844 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 820 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 856 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 876 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1058 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 996 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1048 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1227 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 892 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1082 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 781 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 831 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 782 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 798 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1056 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 911 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1237 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 802 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1017 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 850 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 770 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 792 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 853 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 830 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 815 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 575 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 875 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 739 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 889 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 491 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 527 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 877 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 845 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 821 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 807 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 782 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 748 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 784 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 817 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 759 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 781 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 875 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 779 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 876 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 969 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 816 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 852 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 804 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 894 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 790 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 842 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 839 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 797 Views
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Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 782 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 800 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 732 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 837 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 532 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 802 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 784 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 856 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 805 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 849 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 802 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 733 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 798 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 767 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 831 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 751 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 933 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 870 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 881 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 809 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 773 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 808 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 934 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 837 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 829 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 940 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 981 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1006 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 760 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 922 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 831 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 771 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 905 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 859 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 723 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 880 Views

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