Active Users:284 Time:25/04/2024 03:27:14 PM
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM

View original post
I'm not really "wishing" for anything here, I'm noting where I find discrepancy in how I read the text and what the Companion says regarding strength. RJ set the stage in many ways to show that stronger channelers were typically more bold, you can see that just by looking at the strength rankings and looking at how these individuals behaved.

RJ set no such stage. Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve, Rand... these people cover a substantial number of power levels, but show no actual difference in boldness. When Siuan lost her access to the OP completely, she was shown to be no less bold. Once she came back weaker, she was shown to be, if anything, even more bold.

RJ has his chief observer of the Aes Sedai, Egwene, voice contempt for the strength=any character trait system quite early. Moghedien is one of the first Forsaken we spend any amount of time with, and she's far stronger than the majority of the channelers we meet, but she is shown to be anything but bold. Asmodean is shown to be cowardly too, yet he too is way stronger than most we meet.

The strength-boldness correlation simply does not exist.


I found it odd from Mesaana's behavior that she was so strong in the power. She behaved as though she was less than the other Forsaken, even while talking about how she knew she "matched up in skill" she was admitting being afraid of Semirhage. I don't actually think Mesaana was particularly inept, she showed quite a bit of skill actually and created more chaos than any Forsaken save Graendal really. But the hiding, fearfulness and generally meek attitude went a long way toward assuming she wasn't as powerful in the OP.

We don't see her fearful at all. Even after being raped by Shaidar Haran, we don't exactly see her crumple do we?

She is hiding her face from Alviarin because her Aes Sedai disguise looks like her actual self. It makes great sense to not reveal that to an underling greedy for power.

Nothing in her behavior says anything about her strength in the OP.


I think what Anaiya's comment is supposed to mean is that being strong gives you a bit of swagger, that doesn't seem crazy to me, especially from a modern Aes Sedai. But I agree that we've got plenty of examples of strong people being inept as well as weak one's being effective ... look at Shemerin, she was a level 15, quite high for Aes Sedai, but was also totally inept! Something RJ had to go out of his way to explain (she's got one of the more flushed out entries in the Companion)

Swagger is not what Anaiya meant. She was specifically talking about picking a woman strong in the OP to be Amyrlin Seat, and she specifically says that the strong will that supposedly goes with strength will be a benefit to such a woman. The irony is pretty thick, because we see this from Siuan's PoV when she has no strength in the Power at all, yet she is manipulating Anaiya. RJ is subtly sniggering at Aes Sedai notions of the importance of strength.

Shemerin came later, and reinforced the point. But the point was there from the beginning.


It's exception when someone weaker is exceptional

Only in the minds of Aes Sedai and Aes Sedai trained. No Wise One is surprised that Sorilea is strong willed. Egwene brings up Sorilea and Bair and their strength of will how many times? She keeps marveling at it, but the point of that isn't to tell you strong willed women weak in the OP are rare. The point is that the Aes Sedai notion of the importance of OP strength is retarded.
, that's pretty consistent throughout the books, so much so that RJ went out of his way to point it out most of the time. Cadsuane had to tell us that Daigian had "one of the finest minds" in the Tower, yet she still spend 48 years in training (close to 2x the next slowest learner). All part of his illustration of her power level.

No... illustration of the retardedness of the Tower! I can't believe that you took Cadsuane's statement to mean "Daigian is exceptional". She clearly derides the system that would make stronger AS ignrore Daigian's mind, and talk freely around her. She fully intends to use that to her advantage. This does not mean she endorses the AS view that weak AS are next to worthless! Nor is she saying a weak AS with a fine mind is a rarity, because Kumira is also weak, also likely to be ignored, and also brilliant.
Mesaana had weak motivations for turning to the Shadow, did comparatively less than others during the WoP and generally hid behind an alliance with more powerful allies. Adds up to a weaker individual IMO.

Mesaana's motivation is no weaker than Asmodean's, or any number of others. During the WoP, her schools were considered to be hugely influential. She was one of the Shadow's prime administrators, remember?

But again... why does any of this have anything to do with OP strength?

Reply to message
Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3172 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 873 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 847 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 982 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 894 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 990 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 997 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1177 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 837 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 966 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1023 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 952 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1043 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 985 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1143 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1092 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1114 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 914 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1152 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 968 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 847 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1110 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 964 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1064 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1127 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 914 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1053 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 921 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 843 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 872 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 871 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 905 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 950 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 864 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1064 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 885 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 837 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 867 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 552 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 910 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 935 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 838 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 876 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 853 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 601 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 884 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 848 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1048 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 920 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 933 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 983 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 979 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 917 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 920 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 990 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 825 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 845 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1039 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 894 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 969 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1013 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 842 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 877 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 844 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 820 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 856 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 876 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1058 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 996 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1048 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1227 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 892 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1082 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 781 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 830 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 781 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 798 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1055 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 911 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1236 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 802 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1017 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 850 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 769 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 791 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 853 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 829 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 815 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 575 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 875 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 738 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 888 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 490 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 527 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 876 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 845 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 820 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 806 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 782 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 747 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 783 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 816 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 758 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 781 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 875 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 779 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 876 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 969 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 816 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 852 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 804 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 894 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 790 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 841 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 839 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 796 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 810 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 782 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 800 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 732 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 837 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 532 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 802 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 784 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 856 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 805 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 848 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 802 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 733 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 798 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 767 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 831 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 751 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 933 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 869 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 881 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 809 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 772 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 808 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 934 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 837 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 828 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 940 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 981 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1006 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 760 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 922 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 830 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 770 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 905 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 859 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 723 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 880 Views

Reply to Message