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Re: Aran'gar Sidious Send a noteboard - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM

Asha'man practice destruction way more, though. Not saying he is definitely more skilled, but the possibility exists.

So they're basically like Alivia, with advantages and disadvantages. As long as they don't have to defend themselves, I suppose it's all good.
But they don't know how strong the other party is, in these discussions.

But they do. Egwene has first hand experience of how strong Lanfear is. She has seen her power. I suspect her statement covers all of the Forsaken, not just the males.
Egwene had met Lanfear and Moghedien, but had no real clue how much stronger the men were.

Egwene has been at the mercy of Rand. That was a nasty lesson even from her own PoV. Even though everyone was 'weak' then, it showed her that males can be enormously powerful.
But she had a pretty large circle backing her up, remember? She compelled various Aes Sedai and linked with them.

And Aviendha was also fighting her...
That is a fact, not some logical deduction.
Which scene are you talking about here?

It's a fact and logical. On the hilltop she made a barrier that no lightning could break down. She said the angreal saved her barrier. We know that Demandred and Aginor were going for them, and they're ++2, so logically she had to pull more than this.
Several things are at issue here, though:

1) Rand had an angreal. We don't know whether or not he used it in this scene. And we don't know its strength.


Rand wanted to shield seven Sisters at one point and Lews Therin said it would not be possible. Rand then thought about the angreal and LTT became uneasy. It's not a leap to say that he can shield two women unaided if he's considering seven.
2) Verin and Alanna were linked, and we don't know exactly how much you lose because of that.

When Elayne was in a circle with the Bowl she said she was drawing close to her maximum.
3) More importantly, nothing says someone weaker cannot ever shield someone stronger. Moiraine tried with Merean, which she wouldn't have bothered with if it wasn't possible. We know that even for someone stronger, placing a shield isn't always a hundred percent thing.

That is true. We have seen Graendal shield Aran'gar, but reference my point above on what Rand thinks about his own abilities.
4) We don't know what Talent, if any, Rand had with shielding.

Rand also mentions that shielding a woman doesn't require small amount of Power (when he shield Shalon).
First, this would depend on how strong he thinks the average Aes Sedai is, no? He has seen what Moiraine can do, but knows she is the strongest in the Tower. But how accurate his his idea of what strength range most Aes Sedai occupy?

It's most likely he has based everything off LTT's memories. He also says that no three women can cut him off from the Source under any circumstances unless they have Forsaken strength. This heavily hints at AOL knowledge.
Except... we saw 4 channelers, one much much weaker than anyone (Daigian), take down Aran'gar. Forget that, take Verin's circle. Even with her weak angreal, she is likely at best a match for Graendal, and she is definitely not in a stronger circle than Egwene+Romanda+Lelaine.

How did they take down Aran'gar? Eben died! By all accounts Aran'gar was uninjured and merely forced back. Look a circle of four is not to be trifled with under any circumstances, but Aran'gar had several advantages. I don't even know how Daigian managed to fight someone who wielded saidin.

Also remember that we don't know what a weak angreal is. We were once told that a weak angreal made Elayne twice as strong as Nynaeve which I have to admit blew me away. I was thinking that a weak angreal would make you as strong as Nynaeve. Cadsuane must have a very weak angreal.

The most reliable comparison circle is the one that faced Demandred. A mixed circle of three hit Demandred exactly as hard as his own attack would have. It says it just like that. We know that mixed circles are greatly amplified, so it doesn't strain credibility at all that three women would be weaker than Demandred, and it would take about four or more to fight him linked. Egwene's statement is not ludicrous. Her circle with Romanda and Lelaine might be greater in strength than ++1 but fighting someone with much greater skill is also the challenge. I don't think that Egwene's circle would smother a male Forsaken. I think it would be a dead even duel, which is why Egwene is uncertain.


Smother. Not match, smother. Liandrin knows how skilled Moghedien is, how fast. So she is seeking an overwhelming advantage, and thinks three of them together can do it.

I agree, and Moghedien is the weakest of the Forsaken. The distance between Moghedien at 4 and the weakest male we know at ++4 might be considerable.
We know Melaine is level 17. And per Terez, the notes place Amys at 16. Even if she was at what frankly seems too low a level for her, I don't think Egwene can hold more of the Power than Melaine and Amys combined. But that doesn't mean she can't win in a fight against them!

I agree, but either theory is acceptable.
That is my point. We always took "able to win in a fight" to mean "equal to or stronger in the Power". I'm saying we can't. Elza's statement is one of the only purely quantitative ones we have. She isn't talking about who would win in a fight. She isn't talking about skill. She is talking simply about the amount of Power being held. Thus, it is the only one we can take to evaluate actual volumes of power various characters can draw.

Yes I agree with you. But 2x Aes Sedai < ++1 isn't very helpful. I suppose one can then place average AS strength at 40-50? We already know from Moiraine that Cadsuane doesn't stand too high above her.
So, when we take Egwene's statement about not being able to face a male Forsaken, we can't just use that to assume Egwene+Lelaine+Romanda will draw less of the OP than Aran'gar. That is just absurd, even by your lowball numbers of Egwene at 80, Amys and Melaine at 40-50. Egwene's reaction is about her lack of knowledge of male Forsaken strength, and what skills they may possess.

I fully accept that. Alivia is prima facie proof that you need massive strength to face that sort of skill. I'm just merely reintroducing the argument that if Rand feels that he can easily face three average women, then you have to accept that Egwene might have difficulty facing a male even if all three of them are strong. You said her statement was discredited. I don't agree with that. The Forsaken faced strong circles at the Cleansing and none of them were outright overwhelmed.
We know Eben didn't die from facing Semirhage, from Jahar's account given to the Rebel Hall. There's no earthly reason for Daigian to hide the fact that another Forsaken killed Eben from his friend.

It's an example. I'm saying that the Cleansing wasn't fully described.
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3157 Views
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Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 824 Views
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Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 929 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 969 Views
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