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Re: Here's how I see it: DomA Send a noteboard - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM

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I'd say each "level" is a range. A small range, with the upper end of a lower level butting up right against the lower level of the next highest one.

It's that. It's a continuous and linear scale, with each level covering an equal range. It's not stated black on white, but it's clear, notably when you see the life expectancy functions linearly, and that RJ made some comparisons by number of levels.

By the way, there was actually not a single mention in the notes Terez got at the library that the level system is more than RJ's meta-tool outside the fictional universe. Not once it's even hinted at that in the notes (or for that matter, the books) the White Tower uses a level system like this. I was a bit surprised that Harriet apparently decided it existed in the story. A lot of situations in the books seem to flagrantly contradict that (notably the numerous POV from sisters or even Forsaken that go out of their way to describe someone's strength by comparison rather than resorting to the scale, if it had existed. The vocabulary used to speak of strengths, whether by AS or AOLers, goes against that too. "As strong as a woman can be", "A sharp gap", "of not negligible strength" etc. It's all avoiding a formal scale, culturally . My guess is that they probably would have thought that vulgar/demeaning. No doubt there was a way to calculate precisely your strength, the way your calculate blood pressure, waistline, etc, but I don't think those numbers corresponded to "levels" nor that they were used by AS in daily life at all, in either age.

As for the WT, it's a strength gap that determines when deference/taking suggestions etc. begins. In the notes it said the gap starts at around 2 levels. The gap at which suggestions from a stronger sister become as good as orders is probably much larger than 2 levels (based on the way some of the stronger sisters tried to resist Cadsuane, I'd say it might as much as a gap of 6 to 8 levels)

In formal situations or when a definite hierarchy is required, sisters have ways to rank themselves, but in day-to-day situations, if falls back on personality, if the gap isn't large enough, and there's the other unwritten rule that a sister normally don't meddle in another's business.

I think the strength range covered by a level is larger than you imply when you say within a level they'd have to resort to duelling to decide exact strength. I think RJ was speaking of women who stood even closer than that in strength. RJ didn't need great precision (he would have assigned an exact strength to everyone, if he did), he invented that system largely to determine at a glance relationships betwen the AS, and eventually extended it, obviously to be able to keep track of the strength comparisons he was starting to include, and of certain details like gateways, etc. He devised the male levels, but by all evidence, he barely used the male scale at all in his notes.

I think he decided around the time of LOC (or before writing ACOS) to expand his original system (which I think covered only from the strength of Moiraine/Elaida at level 1 to what he saw then as the bottom level for the shawl at level 21). I think he likely started by subdividing his original scale to have a larger range of strengths for AS to use in Salidar or around Elaida, and with the Kin, the WF, the WO. This is when, indeed, strengths are really started to get discussed in the books.

I think this is when he built his "Aes Sedai bible", that is he created himself a bank of sisters, distributed roughly following his bell curve , assigned with an Ajah (to respect the proportions he had decided on), a level or range or levels, and occasionally other basic characteristics. He seems to have put a great deal of work into entering the new levels for women in his notes (the double system, we've surmised, was used to ensure no mistake and confusion between notes with the old system and notes with the new). Around the AS levels, he expanded the scale to cover all female strengths up to Lanfear, distributing the girls and the new stronger characters too, and he expanded it by the other end. My guess is that he set the last level at 66 to get 72 levels including the male ones, just because it was neat.

I think his notes assigning a strength to the male Forsaken (and the women) are from that time when he seemed somewhat enthusiastic about the new "complete" system. But it seems he never really bothered with it for the Asha'man, or extremely little. Male strengths are extremely rare in the notes.

Darius putting Morgase and Androl at level 66 is much too low (I think at level 66, a woman doesn't have the strength to do much at all with the OP, she just has the genetic abillity and can probably not be trained beyond touching the source, without involving an angreal, that is.

In a note relevant to Morgase's story, RJ said that below level 57, the ability to lift anything with the power (lifting stuff is a factor of comparison he used) drops to a feather. Morgase is at minimum 57, maybe a few levels above. She's very likely comparable to Sorilea. The difference is that Morgase doesn't have a personality that surrender control easily (like Nynaeve) and it would have been very hard for her to learn to grasp the source no matter what. As it was, her strength is way below the cut-off for the shawl, and even that to make Accepted. The AS awoke her ability for political motives, and I doubt they put that much effort into it when it was clear Morgase struggled. Sorilea, on the other hand, was taught as much as she could, and could perfectly embrace the Source at will and learn difficult weaves that she couldn't even make work. The WO understood that very weak women may not be able to channel much, but they still could pass on all their OP knowledge to their future pupils... I doubt the WO have lost weaves nearly as often as the WT did...

As for Androl, personally I suspect the last 6 levels aren't used for men. A level 60 man is comparable in what he can do with saidin to what a level 66 woman can.

My guess is that Androl is in the lower 50s or very high 40s.

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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3157 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 861 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 834 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 970 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 881 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 978 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 982 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1165 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 824 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 952 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1006 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 938 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1031 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 971 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1130 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1074 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1099 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 898 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1137 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 955 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 832 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1095 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 946 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1046 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1109 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 902 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1043 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 909 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 829 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 857 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 855 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 890 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 936 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 853 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1051 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 870 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 822 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 854 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 545 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 896 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 922 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 824 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 863 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 840 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 595 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 870 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 833 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1031 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 906 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 920 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 973 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 969 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 902 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 904 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 972 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 810 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 833 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1026 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 878 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 953 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 999 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 828 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 863 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 831 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 804 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 839 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 862 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1047 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 982 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1036 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1210 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 880 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1066 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 768 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 816 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 770 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 785 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1042 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 896 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1223 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 789 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1001 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 838 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 756 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 778 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 837 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 816 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 801 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 569 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 860 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 727 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 874 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 484 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 519 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 861 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 830 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 807 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 792 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 770 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 737 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 768 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 804 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 744 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 769 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 861 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 767 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 858 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 955 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 804 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 835 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 791 Views
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Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 775 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 825 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 824 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 785 Views
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Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 770 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 787 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 718 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 822 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 525 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 788 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 771 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 844 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 790 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 837 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 786 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 718 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 786 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 753 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 819 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 737 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 922 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 859 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 870 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 797 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 759 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 796 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 919 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 824 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 817 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 929 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 968 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 994 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 748 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 910 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 817 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 757 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 892 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 846 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 706 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 866 Views

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