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Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series Sidious Send a noteboard - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM

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This site has always been obsessed with power levels; it's amusing to see how many comments are on this post. I have never cared very much about power levels, and Dom said he never cared much either, but once we got our hands on the notes and saw all the detail on power rankings, making a list was just too tempting. So I guess the obsession rubbed off on me through Dom...

I didn't create this just to come up with the strength scale, I also wanted to look at how old some Aes Sedai were and their training times and nationality breakout etc ... Was a fun exercise to figure out who is Black Ajah and try and infer if strength level might play a role or if it was more heavily weighted toward specific nationalities etc ... Basically I wanted to look at as many data points as we have available cause I'm a nerd like that


I get it, and I did some of that on my half-assed spreadsheet. I wanted to do more but I had to do other stuff.

Some characters are more obsessed with strength than others. Considering the strengths RJ assigned to the Forsaken, it seems that they were kind of oddly not obsessed with strength. Most of the development of the Forsaken happened at a time when RJ hadn't really decided on their strengths, and I think it shows. (And not just in the BWB, where there was a half-assed effort to order the Forsaken by strength.)

The Aes Sedai hierarchy is based on strength, but then they have this weird custom where they're not supposed to talk about it, and RJ went so far as to have Eadyth say she felt the need to scrub her teeth after talking about it.

It was probably some time while RJ was writing books 5-7 that he felt the need to start making notes on Aes Sedai strengths. That would have been when he came up with the first system, with Elaida on top. Then somewhere between TPOD and COT he started using the new system. That's probably when he started trying to decide on Forsaken strengths.


I think it's pretty obvious that he started to explore that no earlier than TSR where we first start hearing a little about various strength levels in more specific detail, but the first 3 books we don't really hear much about it aside from big generalities. I think it's clear that RJ didn't have a formal system in place until TPOD, possibly TSR as we have a few hints in that book as we start to meet channelers outside of Aes Sedai and characters like Egwene start to actually pay attention to strength for the first time (i.e. it's in TSR where Egwene first gives thought to being stronger than Moiraine). By the time we get to later books it's practically obsessive from Elayne or any Aes Sedai to note the strength level of another woman.

There are close to 300 characters who have a specific strength level listed for them, and most of those strengths were explicitly laid out in the books too ... when you stop to think about how much work went into simply introducing 300 characters and mentioning a detail like that for all of them it's no surprise that so many fans are relatively obsessed with OP strength. The characters were fairly obsessed with it too!

I think the Forsaken are an interesting way of showing us that the top levels are all pretty much equals in terms of "who would win in a fight" ... skills and Talents and such would be vastly more important to individuals such as these, theoretically they all have the level of strength necessary to be a huge threat to any of the others so it's all kind of "shades of gray" IMO. Seems like at a certain point strength had little to do with effectiveness too. Basically anyone level 13 or above was strong enough to individually perform pretty much all of the OP weaves we knew of and was strong enough to withstand the Choedan Kal, beyond that level skill seems to be the only real differentiator. The Companion's strength listings for the Forsaken only seem to highlight that to me as there is a spread of 10 levels between the strongest and the weakest, yet there isn't a whole lot of effectiveness difference that isn't related to skill or Talent.


I think up to TFOH he had a basic system...
- average man equals approximately two women
- a channeler can be maybe more than ten times stronger than an average channeler in potential.

He changed this to...
- one man basically equal to one woman
- the difference between average and very high strength isn't that big... maybe three times but maybe even less.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3174 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 877 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 849 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 987 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 896 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 992 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1000 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1181 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 839 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 968 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1027 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 955 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1045 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 991 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1147 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1096 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1117 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 916 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1154 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 972 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 849 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1112 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 967 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1068 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1130 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 917 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1057 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 923 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 847 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 874 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 873 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 908 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 953 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 866 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1067 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 888 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 839 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 869 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 552 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 913 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 937 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 842 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 879 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 857 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 601 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 887 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 850 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1051 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 923 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 935 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 988 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 982 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 919 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 923 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 992 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 828 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 848 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1041 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 897 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 971 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1015 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 844 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 880 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 846 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 823 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 859 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 877 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1060 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1002 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1051 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1229 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 895 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1085 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 785 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 834 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 786 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 800 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1059 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 913 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1242 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 808 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1020 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 853 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 773 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 795 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 856 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 832 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 817 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 575 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 878 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 741 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 892 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 491 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 527 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 881 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 847 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 823 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 811 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 785 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 751 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 786 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 818 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 761 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 785 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 880 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 782 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 878 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 972 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 819 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 854 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 807 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 894 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 792 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 846 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 841 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 797 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 813 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 787 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 801 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 734 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 839 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 533 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 804 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 786 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 859 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 808 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 852 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 804 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 737 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 802 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 770 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 834 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 755 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 935 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 872 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 883 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 811 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 775 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 810 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 938 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 840 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 832 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 944 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 983 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1009 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 764 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 928 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 833 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 773 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 908 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 863 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 727 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 885 Views

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