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Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series Sidious Send a noteboard - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM

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This site has always been obsessed with power levels; it's amusing to see how many comments are on this post. I have never cared very much about power levels, and Dom said he never cared much either, but once we got our hands on the notes and saw all the detail on power rankings, making a list was just too tempting. So I guess the obsession rubbed off on me through Dom...

I didn't create this just to come up with the strength scale, I also wanted to look at how old some Aes Sedai were and their training times and nationality breakout etc ... Was a fun exercise to figure out who is Black Ajah and try and infer if strength level might play a role or if it was more heavily weighted toward specific nationalities etc ... Basically I wanted to look at as many data points as we have available cause I'm a nerd like that


I get it, and I did some of that on my half-assed spreadsheet. I wanted to do more but I had to do other stuff.

Some characters are more obsessed with strength than others. Considering the strengths RJ assigned to the Forsaken, it seems that they were kind of oddly not obsessed with strength. Most of the development of the Forsaken happened at a time when RJ hadn't really decided on their strengths, and I think it shows. (And not just in the BWB, where there was a half-assed effort to order the Forsaken by strength.)

The Aes Sedai hierarchy is based on strength, but then they have this weird custom where they're not supposed to talk about it, and RJ went so far as to have Eadyth say she felt the need to scrub her teeth after talking about it.

It was probably some time while RJ was writing books 5-7 that he felt the need to start making notes on Aes Sedai strengths. That would have been when he came up with the first system, with Elaida on top. Then somewhere between TPOD and COT he started using the new system. That's probably when he started trying to decide on Forsaken strengths.


I think it's pretty obvious that he started to explore that no earlier than TSR where we first start hearing a little about various strength levels in more specific detail, but the first 3 books we don't really hear much about it aside from big generalities. I think it's clear that RJ didn't have a formal system in place until TPOD, possibly TSR as we have a few hints in that book as we start to meet channelers outside of Aes Sedai and characters like Egwene start to actually pay attention to strength for the first time (i.e. it's in TSR where Egwene first gives thought to being stronger than Moiraine). By the time we get to later books it's practically obsessive from Elayne or any Aes Sedai to note the strength level of another woman.

There are close to 300 characters who have a specific strength level listed for them, and most of those strengths were explicitly laid out in the books too ... when you stop to think about how much work went into simply introducing 300 characters and mentioning a detail like that for all of them it's no surprise that so many fans are relatively obsessed with OP strength. The characters were fairly obsessed with it too!

I think the Forsaken are an interesting way of showing us that the top levels are all pretty much equals in terms of "who would win in a fight" ... skills and Talents and such would be vastly more important to individuals such as these, theoretically they all have the level of strength necessary to be a huge threat to any of the others so it's all kind of "shades of gray" IMO. Seems like at a certain point strength had little to do with effectiveness too. Basically anyone level 13 or above was strong enough to individually perform pretty much all of the OP weaves we knew of and was strong enough to withstand the Choedan Kal, beyond that level skill seems to be the only real differentiator. The Companion's strength listings for the Forsaken only seem to highlight that to me as there is a spread of 10 levels between the strongest and the weakest, yet there isn't a whole lot of effectiveness difference that isn't related to skill or Talent.


I think up to TFOH he had a basic system...
- average man equals approximately two women
- a channeler can be maybe more than ten times stronger than an average channeler in potential.

He changed this to...
- one man basically equal to one woman
- the difference between average and very high strength isn't that big... maybe three times but maybe even less.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3658 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1378 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1347 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1528 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1415 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1541 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1606 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1704 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1396 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1523 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1540 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1528 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1536 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1550 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1724 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1686 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1664 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1487 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1724 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1581 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1407 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1691 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1515 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1638 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1684 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1445 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1572 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1459 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1388 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1404 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1393 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1463 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1477 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1388 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1741 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1408 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1385 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1389 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 838 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1405 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1431 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1345 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1400 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1405 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 913 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1391 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1385 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1570 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1461 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1481 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1515 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1517 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1442 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1491 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1520 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1319 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1385 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1554 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1382 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1495 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1542 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1345 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1461 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1301 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1328 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1392 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1393 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1532 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1544 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1553 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1906 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1400 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1728 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1321 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1343 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1352 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1276 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1619 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1316 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1423 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1904 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1324 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1538 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1374 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1263 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1302 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1382 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1325 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1341 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 852 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1422 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1234 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1414 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 775 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 801 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1403 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1383 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1304 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1310 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1272 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1257 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1302 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1379 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1296 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1291 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1358 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1274 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1408 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1474 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1386 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1404 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1286 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1383 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1282 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1372 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1351 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1279 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1322 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1270 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1316 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1265 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1395 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 809 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 1348 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1260 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1395 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1348 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1324 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1299 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1241 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1286 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1327 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1303 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1288 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1434 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1379 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1465 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 1324 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1320 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1366 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1468 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1487 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1352 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1636 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1541 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1519 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1308 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1490 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1352 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1272 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1383 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1371 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1250 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1480 Views

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