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yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM

which also leads me to believe RJ didn't really have a "scale" for dexterity and there's nothing to say it was a constant additive bonus for women (realistically this would mean there was only one scale for both men and women and totally negates the point of the ++ levels).

I personally don't care all that much about the "effectiveness" scale since it's clear that RJ didn't create one and didn't seem to really think about something like this beyond a few passing comments, he certainly never gave us enough information about two channelers to conclusively say "X was more effective than Y". We see no clear effectiveness difference between any of the Forsaken really, Graendal is weaker than all but Moghedien, yet had no problem believing she could kill Sammael a ++2 man, who in theory she would be less effective than.

The whole effectiveness conversation seems to only matter for the purposes of trying to back into an actual strength level for certain characters IMO. And I certainly don't think there is enough information to say there is a direct correlation to a ++3 man and a 3 woman or that a level 13 man could only be as effective as a level 19 woman and so forth ... at least not off of the information that they could both create a useable gateway. This can too easily be explained by superior Talent or stronger flow affinity, especially since we've seen channelers perform feats that should be impossible due to a Talent or a flow affinity. Weaves and what could be done by a man and a woman sometimes just varied. We know men and women have different weaves for Traveling and only one strength minimum is mentioned, perhaps the way men Traveled was just generally easier than the way women did it. We know air bridges have a maximum distance they could span and that a weaker woman could achieve the same as Rand could etc...

I think RJ wrote what fit the needs of the story and explained it with whatever device he deemed necessary. Beyond him making the general remark that women are more dexterous than men, I don't recall him ever giving a single detail about dexterity. He typically used Talent or flow affinity as his rationale for someone being particularly good at something.

Egwene's Earth affinity = cuendillar, other women with good strength in Earth could do it better than much stronger women

Siuan could still Heal to the same ability after her strength reduction

Ashmanaille could Travel, but didn't have the requisite strength to even make a non-useable gateway

Androl could make gateways well beyond what any of the most powerful channelers could achieve

Berowyn and her Shielding

Thing is, we have almost nothing to compare a male and a female channeler's strength. The only reason we even think they are different is because RJ said so, the OP feats in the books themselves give us no indication that Lanfear or Semirhage were as effective as Ishamael or that Mesaana was the same as Demandred or Aginor.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3725 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1454 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1423 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1593 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1479 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1618 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1694 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1769 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1464 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1579 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1603 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1598 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1597 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1623 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1798 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1746 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1751 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1544 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1798 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1654 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1485 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1773 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1587 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1705 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1753 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1519 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1635 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1523 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1452 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1479 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1466 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1539 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1546 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1462 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1804 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1471 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1456 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1458 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 878 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1483 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1502 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1413 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1468 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1481 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 960 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1450 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1455 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1645 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1532 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1552 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1583 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1594 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1520 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1561 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1593 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1383 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1462 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1624 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1446 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1554 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1610 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1415 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1538 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1385 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1409 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1461 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1462 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1608 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1602 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1635 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1958 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1464 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1782 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1384 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1414 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1405 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1337 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1711 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1384 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1489 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1958 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1394 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1605 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1443 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1320 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1377 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1445 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1391 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1412 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 903 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1474 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1296 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1475 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 813 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 843 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1466 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1445 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1368 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1372 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1335 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1342 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1381 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1444 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1378 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1368 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1427 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1366 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1479 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1545 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1451 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1483 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1353 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1449 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1344 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1441 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1431 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1361 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1400 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1352 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1392 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1327 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1465 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 844 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 1420 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1331 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1480 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1415 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1415 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1364 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1308 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1347 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1396 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1405 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1359 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1502 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1433 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1540 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 1471 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1388 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1441 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1545 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1564 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1432 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1716 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1626 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1589 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1373 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1562 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1428 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1341 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1454 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1456 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1332 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1544 Views

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