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yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM

which also leads me to believe RJ didn't really have a "scale" for dexterity and there's nothing to say it was a constant additive bonus for women (realistically this would mean there was only one scale for both men and women and totally negates the point of the ++ levels).

I personally don't care all that much about the "effectiveness" scale since it's clear that RJ didn't create one and didn't seem to really think about something like this beyond a few passing comments, he certainly never gave us enough information about two channelers to conclusively say "X was more effective than Y". We see no clear effectiveness difference between any of the Forsaken really, Graendal is weaker than all but Moghedien, yet had no problem believing she could kill Sammael a ++2 man, who in theory she would be less effective than.

The whole effectiveness conversation seems to only matter for the purposes of trying to back into an actual strength level for certain characters IMO. And I certainly don't think there is enough information to say there is a direct correlation to a ++3 man and a 3 woman or that a level 13 man could only be as effective as a level 19 woman and so forth ... at least not off of the information that they could both create a useable gateway. This can too easily be explained by superior Talent or stronger flow affinity, especially since we've seen channelers perform feats that should be impossible due to a Talent or a flow affinity. Weaves and what could be done by a man and a woman sometimes just varied. We know men and women have different weaves for Traveling and only one strength minimum is mentioned, perhaps the way men Traveled was just generally easier than the way women did it. We know air bridges have a maximum distance they could span and that a weaker woman could achieve the same as Rand could etc...

I think RJ wrote what fit the needs of the story and explained it with whatever device he deemed necessary. Beyond him making the general remark that women are more dexterous than men, I don't recall him ever giving a single detail about dexterity. He typically used Talent or flow affinity as his rationale for someone being particularly good at something.

Egwene's Earth affinity = cuendillar, other women with good strength in Earth could do it better than much stronger women

Siuan could still Heal to the same ability after her strength reduction

Ashmanaille could Travel, but didn't have the requisite strength to even make a non-useable gateway

Androl could make gateways well beyond what any of the most powerful channelers could achieve

Berowyn and her Shielding

Thing is, we have almost nothing to compare a male and a female channeler's strength. The only reason we even think they are different is because RJ said so, the OP feats in the books themselves give us no indication that Lanfear or Semirhage were as effective as Ishamael or that Mesaana was the same as Demandred or Aginor.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3172 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 873 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 847 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 983 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 894 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 991 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 997 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1177 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 837 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 966 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1024 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 952 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1043 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 987 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1143 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1092 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1114 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 914 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1152 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 968 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 847 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1110 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 964 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1064 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1127 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 915 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1053 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 921 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 843 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 872 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 871 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 905 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 950 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 864 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1064 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 885 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 837 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 867 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 552 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 911 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 935 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 839 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 876 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 854 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 601 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 884 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 848 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1048 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 920 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 933 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 984 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 979 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 917 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 920 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 990 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 825 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 846 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1039 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 894 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 969 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1013 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 842 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 877 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 844 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 820 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 856 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 876 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1058 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 996 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1048 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1227 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 892 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1082 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 781 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 831 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 782 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 798 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1056 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 762 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 911 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1237 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 802 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1017 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 850 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 770 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 791 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 853 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 830 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 815 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 575 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 875 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 739 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 889 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 491 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 527 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 877 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 845 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 821 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 807 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 782 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 747 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 784 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 817 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 759 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 781 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 875 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 779 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 876 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 969 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 816 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 852 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 804 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 894 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 790 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 842 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 839 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 797 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 810 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 782 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 800 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 732 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 837 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 532 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 802 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 784 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 856 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 805 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 848 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 802 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 733 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 798 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 767 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 831 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 751 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 933 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 870 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 881 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 809 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 773 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 808 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 934 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 837 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 828 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 940 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 981 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1006 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 760 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 922 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 831 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 771 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 905 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 859 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 723 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 880 Views

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