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yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM

which also leads me to believe RJ didn't really have a "scale" for dexterity and there's nothing to say it was a constant additive bonus for women (realistically this would mean there was only one scale for both men and women and totally negates the point of the ++ levels).

I personally don't care all that much about the "effectiveness" scale since it's clear that RJ didn't create one and didn't seem to really think about something like this beyond a few passing comments, he certainly never gave us enough information about two channelers to conclusively say "X was more effective than Y". We see no clear effectiveness difference between any of the Forsaken really, Graendal is weaker than all but Moghedien, yet had no problem believing she could kill Sammael a ++2 man, who in theory she would be less effective than.

The whole effectiveness conversation seems to only matter for the purposes of trying to back into an actual strength level for certain characters IMO. And I certainly don't think there is enough information to say there is a direct correlation to a ++3 man and a 3 woman or that a level 13 man could only be as effective as a level 19 woman and so forth ... at least not off of the information that they could both create a useable gateway. This can too easily be explained by superior Talent or stronger flow affinity, especially since we've seen channelers perform feats that should be impossible due to a Talent or a flow affinity. Weaves and what could be done by a man and a woman sometimes just varied. We know men and women have different weaves for Traveling and only one strength minimum is mentioned, perhaps the way men Traveled was just generally easier than the way women did it. We know air bridges have a maximum distance they could span and that a weaker woman could achieve the same as Rand could etc...

I think RJ wrote what fit the needs of the story and explained it with whatever device he deemed necessary. Beyond him making the general remark that women are more dexterous than men, I don't recall him ever giving a single detail about dexterity. He typically used Talent or flow affinity as his rationale for someone being particularly good at something.

Egwene's Earth affinity = cuendillar, other women with good strength in Earth could do it better than much stronger women

Siuan could still Heal to the same ability after her strength reduction

Ashmanaille could Travel, but didn't have the requisite strength to even make a non-useable gateway

Androl could make gateways well beyond what any of the most powerful channelers could achieve

Berowyn and her Shielding

Thing is, we have almost nothing to compare a male and a female channeler's strength. The only reason we even think they are different is because RJ said so, the OP feats in the books themselves give us no indication that Lanfear or Semirhage were as effective as Ishamael or that Mesaana was the same as Demandred or Aginor.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3581 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1311 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1287 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1459 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1324 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1468 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1505 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1640 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1326 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1438 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1466 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1452 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1472 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1469 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1646 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1620 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1568 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1388 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1634 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1515 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1330 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1612 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1440 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1559 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1622 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1383 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1491 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1371 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1324 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1333 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1332 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1392 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1404 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1320 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1672 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1343 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1305 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1307 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 805 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1323 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1371 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1283 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1334 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1336 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 884 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1323 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1327 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1506 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1398 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1405 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1431 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1445 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1370 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1419 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1455 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1260 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1314 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1483 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1312 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1429 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1475 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1271 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1385 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1243 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1256 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1322 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1305 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1465 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1466 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1487 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1839 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1328 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1654 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1253 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1285 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1283 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1217 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1545 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1234 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1351 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1831 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1256 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1471 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1290 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1199 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1237 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1317 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1258 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1270 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 823 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1356 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1172 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1342 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 749 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 772 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1329 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1322 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1237 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1246 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1197 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1181 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1234 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1312 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1225 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1219 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1285 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1219 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1337 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1403 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1316 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1318 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1217 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1312 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1207 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1304 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1282 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1215 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1243 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1204 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1249 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1181 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1329 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 784 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 1274 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1197 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1329 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1274 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1267 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1227 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1175 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1226 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1251 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1245 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1221 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1357 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1307 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1407 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 1262 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1244 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1284 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1396 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1424 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1284 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1558 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1466 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1462 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1235 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1404 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1285 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1216 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1320 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1310 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1192 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1408 Views

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