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yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM

which also leads me to believe RJ didn't really have a "scale" for dexterity and there's nothing to say it was a constant additive bonus for women (realistically this would mean there was only one scale for both men and women and totally negates the point of the ++ levels).

I personally don't care all that much about the "effectiveness" scale since it's clear that RJ didn't create one and didn't seem to really think about something like this beyond a few passing comments, he certainly never gave us enough information about two channelers to conclusively say "X was more effective than Y". We see no clear effectiveness difference between any of the Forsaken really, Graendal is weaker than all but Moghedien, yet had no problem believing she could kill Sammael a ++2 man, who in theory she would be less effective than.

The whole effectiveness conversation seems to only matter for the purposes of trying to back into an actual strength level for certain characters IMO. And I certainly don't think there is enough information to say there is a direct correlation to a ++3 man and a 3 woman or that a level 13 man could only be as effective as a level 19 woman and so forth ... at least not off of the information that they could both create a useable gateway. This can too easily be explained by superior Talent or stronger flow affinity, especially since we've seen channelers perform feats that should be impossible due to a Talent or a flow affinity. Weaves and what could be done by a man and a woman sometimes just varied. We know men and women have different weaves for Traveling and only one strength minimum is mentioned, perhaps the way men Traveled was just generally easier than the way women did it. We know air bridges have a maximum distance they could span and that a weaker woman could achieve the same as Rand could etc...

I think RJ wrote what fit the needs of the story and explained it with whatever device he deemed necessary. Beyond him making the general remark that women are more dexterous than men, I don't recall him ever giving a single detail about dexterity. He typically used Talent or flow affinity as his rationale for someone being particularly good at something.

Egwene's Earth affinity = cuendillar, other women with good strength in Earth could do it better than much stronger women

Siuan could still Heal to the same ability after her strength reduction

Ashmanaille could Travel, but didn't have the requisite strength to even make a non-useable gateway

Androl could make gateways well beyond what any of the most powerful channelers could achieve

Berowyn and her Shielding

Thing is, we have almost nothing to compare a male and a female channeler's strength. The only reason we even think they are different is because RJ said so, the OP feats in the books themselves give us no indication that Lanfear or Semirhage were as effective as Ishamael or that Mesaana was the same as Demandred or Aginor.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3536 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1283 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1256 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1425 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1293 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1433 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1447 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1610 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1286 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1401 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1428 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1421 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1435 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1441 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1604 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1579 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1539 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1352 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1598 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1479 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1281 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1577 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1406 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1526 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1584 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1345 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1460 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1323 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1289 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1301 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1291 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1348 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1374 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1288 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1633 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1319 Views
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It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1266 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 795 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1282 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1339 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1248 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1300 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1294 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 870 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1278 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1291 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1475 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1356 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1375 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1398 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1414 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1333 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1385 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1422 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1233 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1284 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1448 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1282 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1394 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1444 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1236 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1351 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1207 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1226 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1285 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1281 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1434 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1434 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1442 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1814 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1290 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1616 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1216 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1253 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1242 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1186 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1514 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1203 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1312 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1796 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1215 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1439 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1253 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 1156 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 1202 Views
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That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1224 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 1235 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 812 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1317 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1140 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1297 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 735 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 761 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1292 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1280 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1204 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1216 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 1165 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1149 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1191 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1269 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1194 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1187 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1252 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 1183 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1297 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1365 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1278 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1284 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1186 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1278 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 1175 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1281 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1235 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1188 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 1209 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 1167 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1220 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1146 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1285 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 771 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 1232 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1166 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1288 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1240 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1222 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 1199 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1146 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1204 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1218 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1208 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 1187 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1320 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1271 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1370 Views
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The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1208 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1249 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1366 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1391 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1240 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1523 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1424 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1425 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1198 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1366 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1255 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1176 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1295 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1274 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1163 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1368 Views

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