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Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
"Is Graendal dead?" may well be the most contentious issue in tGS. Like Asmodean's death in tFoH, there is considerable mystery surrounding her death in this book.

While I would say she is alive, that is not what I want to focus on in this post. Instead, let us assume that she is indeed dead, never to return again.

It is then important for us to realize that the events leading to her death are atrociously illogical. How?...

Let's look at how her location was identified.

First, the one person who could tell, her compelled messenger-slave, was killed before he could reveal anything. That is in line with what Graendal would do to protect herself from Rand. It fits, because she knew he was coming, and would obviously do something about it. That is what Rand assumes, and we agreed with this.

The next few steps, however, are quite mind boggling.

We're told another compelled slave of Graendal's, who for some reason, was compelled at Natrin's Barrow rather than in Bandar Eban itself, poisoned the messenger.

He then stays back in the location of the crime! Not only that, he now starts poisoning the merchant Rand imprisons with a slow acting poison!

One might say this was to prevent her from revealing any detail she got out of the messenger. But we know Graendal's compulsion is fool proof from non-OP methods of torture. We see the guys in the prison tell Nynaeve quite clearly that the messenger said nothing at all.

Why kill the merchant then?

If all this has no deeper meaning, if all this did not lead to a trap, then Graendal must have had a bout of extraordinary idiocy.

How do I prevent al'Thor from finding my hideout? Oh! I know! I'll have the guy who can tell him poisoned! I'll send someone from Natrin's Barrow. Then I'll have him stay and needlessly poison others so al'Thor will get suspicious and find him and... oh!

It takes the meanest intelligence to figure that Kerb was not going to help but hinder any plans of Graendal to stay hidden. Graendal, the super smart Forsaken, would certainly have figured this out.

Another alternative is that she did indeed want to lure Rand to her lair, but did not expect the Balefire and so she died.

That is, however, also illogical. Not only do we know that Graendal is never going to have an all out fight, we know she knows that Semirhage was captured by Rand.

She is also aware he has the CK, courtesy Cyndane. She may not know to expect Balefire, but she would certainly know she would stand no chance whatsoever against Rand.

The conclusion? If Graendal is dead, then it was one of the shoddiest sequences in all of WoT. It cheapens and lessens the worth of tGS quite spectacularly.
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Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 2628 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1317 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1091 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1207 Views
You also ignored... - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1206 Views
and of course, the obvious theme - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 994 Views
Bah! - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1168 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1123 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1361 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1154 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1108 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 900 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 904 Views
that's kind of my whole point - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 859 Views
Uh, not actually at all really - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1149 Views
*shudders* - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1008 Views
*shrugs* - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1068 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 952 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1066 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 882 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1048 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1053 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 984 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1079 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 878 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1038 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 846 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1061 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1015 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 920 Views
Re: - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1013 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1022 Views
Me, Too. - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 992 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1121 Views
I believe she's dead - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 978 Views
Re: I believe she's dead - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1020 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 839 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1149 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 869 Views
Stop passing judgments... - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1076 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 963 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 922 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 972 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 871 Views
Not really - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 986 Views
Re: Not really - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1025 Views
Re: Not really - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 962 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 957 Views
*NM* - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 532 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 989 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 869 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1001 Views
read the whole quote - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 734 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 853 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 899 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1073 Views
I don't see any flaws. - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1097 Views
But... - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 851 Views
Re: But... - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 980 Views
That is what I thought ... - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 897 Views
That still doesn't make sense. - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1057 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1095 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 978 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 900 Views
Nonsense. - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 826 Views
Dude, read what I said please... - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 990 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 992 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 894 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 936 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 753 Views
We don't know that, exactly - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 807 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 883 Views
Seriously? - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 935 Views
Maybe... - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 866 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 676 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 607 Views
Ok, in more detail: - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1010 Views
I'm tired of making this point... - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 747 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 916 Views
Thoughts - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 853 Views
But that means she's dead - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 917 Views
Re: But that means she's dead - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 992 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 834 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 929 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1033 Views
Indeed... - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1073 Views
Re: Indeed... - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 890 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 922 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 903 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 720 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 935 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1005 Views
That's not fair - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 865 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 833 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 820 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 954 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 974 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 632 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 990 Views
Not even comparable. - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 784 Views
Re: Not even comparable. - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 905 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 836 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 896 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 875 Views
And, just to double post: - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 657 Views
Re: And, just to double post: - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 923 Views
Nice answer. - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 955 Views
Re: Nice answer. - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 906 Views
Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1014 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 943 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 921 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 757 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 959 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 907 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 911 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1004 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 957 Views
I disagree. - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1338 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 879 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 893 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 957 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 917 Views
I don't see a flaw - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1005 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 914 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 927 Views
Spot on. *NM* - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 634 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 914 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 615 Views
Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 909 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1035 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 776 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 909 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 984 Views

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