I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
DomA Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
You believe Graendal was making these efforts to prevent Rand from finding her.
I don't think it's what she was doing at all. I don't think she had fears he could trace her agents back to her hiding place. I think she was totally confident in her Compulsion. Even Semirhage wasn't pleased to be asked to remove a Compulsion net. Graendal was not foolish to assume Rand had no one who could do it succesfully. Assuming otherwise would mean being shy/overcautious and by this lack of confidence deprive herself of much of her toolbox.
It didn't matter that Kerb knew her hiding place. He wasn't supposed to be able to reveal it. It's a big strike of sheer luck that the man hated Graendal so deeply that a part of his mind was able to spit this information out before he died, because Rand mentionned he could stop her if he knew where she was.
Graendal didn't fear that Rand found out some of her agents like Kerb - anyone who can delve could figure out she's compelled this or that person.
Graendal was under orders to frustrate Rand and increase his despair.
She let him catch a Councilor. He thinks he can track down the others and have them elect a new King, but she gets a few assassinated. Not all of them - he would have abandonned this solution immediately and think of something else. No, she killed just a few so he expanded the efforts to find them and it's in the end fruitless, more and more frustrating for him, more and more a waste of time and effort. Wherever he turned, Graendal seemed everywhere and more and more he would have gotten paranoid, wondering if there was a point in attempting anything, since anyone could be one of her pawns... Before long, he would have started wondering if he could actually trust Ituralde and his men. Had he delved some of them, including Ituralde, he would no longer have trusted these men...
She let him catch Milisair and get useless clues about the King, then she made Milisair vanish. Before long Rand would have tried to locate her, and it would have lead to a dead end: she's been assassinated (only to convince Rand she could have revealed something, but he lost her before she could). Then there was Kerb, but even if he tracked him down as Milisair's assassin, this would have lead nowhere, or on yet another false trail. Rand would have lost his time.
And the "big glitch" of Graendal's death aside (a course of events she could not foresee for all sort of reasons, including that Rand suddenly changed and did something that days ago would have been unthinkable to him and out of character), her plans worked, and in the typical Graendal way it was all extremely economical as far as the level of active efforts from her was concerned). Rand did get totally frustrated with the Domani situation, gave up and left. A success, if not for the little bug that thanks to Semirhage Rand suddenly started playing the game like the Forsaken themselves, with none of the usual restraints of Lightsiders, and he used a tactic even the Shadow abandonned during the WOP as too dangerous... The last thing Graendal would have expected is LTT to make massive use of balefire, with the Pattern already weakened.
I don't think it's what she was doing at all. I don't think she had fears he could trace her agents back to her hiding place. I think she was totally confident in her Compulsion. Even Semirhage wasn't pleased to be asked to remove a Compulsion net. Graendal was not foolish to assume Rand had no one who could do it succesfully. Assuming otherwise would mean being shy/overcautious and by this lack of confidence deprive herself of much of her toolbox.
It didn't matter that Kerb knew her hiding place. He wasn't supposed to be able to reveal it. It's a big strike of sheer luck that the man hated Graendal so deeply that a part of his mind was able to spit this information out before he died, because Rand mentionned he could stop her if he knew where she was.
Graendal didn't fear that Rand found out some of her agents like Kerb - anyone who can delve could figure out she's compelled this or that person.
Graendal was under orders to frustrate Rand and increase his despair.
She let him catch a Councilor. He thinks he can track down the others and have them elect a new King, but she gets a few assassinated. Not all of them - he would have abandonned this solution immediately and think of something else. No, she killed just a few so he expanded the efforts to find them and it's in the end fruitless, more and more frustrating for him, more and more a waste of time and effort. Wherever he turned, Graendal seemed everywhere and more and more he would have gotten paranoid, wondering if there was a point in attempting anything, since anyone could be one of her pawns... Before long, he would have started wondering if he could actually trust Ituralde and his men. Had he delved some of them, including Ituralde, he would no longer have trusted these men...
She let him catch Milisair and get useless clues about the King, then she made Milisair vanish. Before long Rand would have tried to locate her, and it would have lead to a dead end: she's been assassinated (only to convince Rand she could have revealed something, but he lost her before she could). Then there was Kerb, but even if he tracked him down as Milisair's assassin, this would have lead nowhere, or on yet another false trail. Rand would have lost his time.
And the "big glitch" of Graendal's death aside (a course of events she could not foresee for all sort of reasons, including that Rand suddenly changed and did something that days ago would have been unthinkable to him and out of character), her plans worked, and in the typical Graendal way it was all extremely economical as far as the level of active efforts from her was concerned). Rand did get totally frustrated with the Domani situation, gave up and left. A success, if not for the little bug that thanks to Semirhage Rand suddenly started playing the game like the Forsaken themselves, with none of the usual restraints of Lightsiders, and he used a tactic even the Shadow abandonned during the WOP as too dangerous... The last thing Graendal would have expected is LTT to make massive use of balefire, with the Pattern already weakened.
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
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I think Graendal's death was a great scene
25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
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The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
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After reading 12 WoT books...
25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
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I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
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I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
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well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
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Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
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that's kind of my whole point
25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
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None of those "easy explanations" could work
26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
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my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
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Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
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Do we have evidence that this is possible?
26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
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I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
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Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
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26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
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He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
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I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
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Re: I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
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Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
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The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
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Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
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Stop passing judgments...
26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
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But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
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I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
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Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
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Dude, then you derailed the thread...
26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
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no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
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Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
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read the whole quote
26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
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LOL! You read the whole quote
26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
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the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
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Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
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I don't see any flaws.
25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
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But...
25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
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Re: But...
26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
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That still doesn't make sense.
26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
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But, having a clean up guy does make sense.
26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
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But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
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Nonsense.
26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
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Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
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Re: Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
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Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
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I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
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Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
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Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
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Ok, in more detail:
26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
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Thoughts
26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
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Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
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Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
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By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
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I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
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That's not fair
27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
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I agree about the 'awesome' part .
27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
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Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
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It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
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I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
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But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
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So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
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Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
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Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
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Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
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Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
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Re: Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
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Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
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And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
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Re: And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
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Nice answer.
28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
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Re: Nice answer.
28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
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Hilarious.
28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
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That's because you didn't look at other posts.
29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
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Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
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Re: Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
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Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
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I disagree.
29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
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I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display. *NM*
29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
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You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
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I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
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Re: I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
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Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
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I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
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Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
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Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
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