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Not really Sidious Send a noteboard - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM

I'm not certain about her death - I'm merely saying that it's very unlikely that she's alive. When the effects of balefire are seen it is a very strong indicator that the origin has been destroyed. Nothing is set in stone, but I'm pointing out that actually saying she's alive has no real evidence to back it up. I even disagree that thematically it is illogical. She's been a key Forsaken since TFOH, if she dies several books later it makes sense. Rand arrived in Arad Doman with Graendal in mind from the very beginning. To have him destroy her at the end of the book after a lot of soulsearching is logical.

I said in the very beginning that this wasn't about whether Graendal was alive. Its about the chain of events leading to her exposure, and that is full of holes.

If you had said you believe she was dead and that the story did have holes, I'd have agreed with you and left it at that.

Instead, you ignored the logical fallacies in the story and chose to accuse me of wanting Graendal alive! WTF?


But I've addressed those points in other threads, and I continue to agree with Fanatic Templar and Etzel that it does make sense. What holes?

And you do think she's alive. May I not discuss with you why I think you're wrong?
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Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 2628 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1318 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1092 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1208 Views
You also ignored... randfandom - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1206 Views
and of course, the obvious theme Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 994 Views
Bah! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1168 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS Etzel - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1125 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ... amirebram - 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM 2577 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1361 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1154 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Underwood - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1109 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 901 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? beetnemesis - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 905 Views
that's kind of my whole point darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 859 Views
Uh, not actually at all really Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1149 Views
*shudders* Yondaime - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1010 Views
*shrugs* darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1070 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 953 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1067 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? Rurouni_Kenshin - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 882 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1049 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1053 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? Rurouni_Kenshin - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 984 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1079 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 878 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1040 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 847 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM* Gher - 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM 744 Views
Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1062 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1016 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 923 Views
Re: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1015 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1023 Views
Me, Too. The Name With No Man - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 993 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Sidious - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1121 Views
I believe she's dead Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 978 Views
Re: I believe she's dead Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1021 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 839 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM* Shannow - 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM 550 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1149 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! Underwood - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 869 Views
Stop passing judgments... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1076 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 963 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 925 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 973 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 874 Views
Not really Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 988 Views
Re: Not really fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1027 Views
Re: Not really Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 962 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 958 Views
*NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 533 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 991 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 871 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1002 Views
read the whole quote darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 735 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 854 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 901 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1073 Views
I don't see any flaws. Skeeve the Great - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1097 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 851 Views
Re: But... Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 980 Views
That is what I thought ... Yondaime - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 897 Views
That still doesn't make sense. fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1057 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1095 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 979 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! Yondaime - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 900 Views
Nonsense. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 828 Views
Dude, read what I said please... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 993 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 993 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 895 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot Yondaime - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 936 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 754 Views
We don't know that, exactly Yondaime - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 807 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 883 Views
Seriously? Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 935 Views
Maybe... Etzel - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 867 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 677 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 607 Views
Ok, in more detail: Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1013 Views
I'm tired of making this point... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 748 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... Syraelle - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 917 Views
Thoughts Heiko - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 853 Views
But that means she's dead Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 917 Views
Re: But that means she's dead Heiko - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 992 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 834 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. Syraelle - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 930 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1034 Views
Indeed... Etzel - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1073 Views
Re: Indeed... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 893 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 924 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Underwood - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 906 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 721 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 936 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1005 Views
That's not fair Yondaime - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 866 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 833 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM* Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM 565 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM 705 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 820 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 954 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 974 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM 1003 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 632 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 990 Views
Not even comparable. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 785 Views
Re: Not even comparable. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 906 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 836 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 896 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 875 Views
And, just to double post: Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 658 Views
Re: And, just to double post: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 923 Views
Nice answer. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 955 Views
Re: Nice answer. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 907 Views
Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1014 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 944 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 921 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 758 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 959 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 909 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. Etzel - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 911 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1004 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... Etzel - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 958 Views
I disagree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1339 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display. *NM* Etzel - 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM 495 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 879 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 893 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 958 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 917 Views
I don't see a flaw rAndy aL - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1006 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw Underwood - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 915 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM 902 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. TheUltimateReality - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 927 Views
Spot on. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 635 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans DomA - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 915 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 616 Views
Compulsion is limited Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 910 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1036 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited DomA - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 776 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. taura-tierno - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 909 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. Libby - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 984 Views
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