Active Users:785 Time:18/12/2025 03:42:03 AM
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans DomA Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
You believe Graendal was making these efforts to prevent Rand from finding her.

I don't think it's what she was doing at all. I don't think she had fears he could trace her agents back to her hiding place. I think she was totally confident in her Compulsion. Even Semirhage wasn't pleased to be asked to remove a Compulsion net. Graendal was not foolish to assume Rand had no one who could do it succesfully. Assuming otherwise would mean being shy/overcautious and by this lack of confidence deprive herself of much of her toolbox.

It didn't matter that Kerb knew her hiding place. He wasn't supposed to be able to reveal it. It's a big strike of sheer luck that the man hated Graendal so deeply that a part of his mind was able to spit this information out before he died, because Rand mentionned he could stop her if he knew where she was.

Graendal didn't fear that Rand found out some of her agents like Kerb - anyone who can delve could figure out she's compelled this or that person.

Graendal was under orders to frustrate Rand and increase his despair.

She let him catch a Councilor. He thinks he can track down the others and have them elect a new King, but she gets a few assassinated. Not all of them - he would have abandonned this solution immediately and think of something else. No, she killed just a few so he expanded the efforts to find them and it's in the end fruitless, more and more frustrating for him, more and more a waste of time and effort. Wherever he turned, Graendal seemed everywhere and more and more he would have gotten paranoid, wondering if there was a point in attempting anything, since anyone could be one of her pawns... Before long, he would have started wondering if he could actually trust Ituralde and his men. Had he delved some of them, including Ituralde, he would no longer have trusted these men...

She let him catch Milisair and get useless clues about the King, then she made Milisair vanish. Before long Rand would have tried to locate her, and it would have lead to a dead end: she's been assassinated (only to convince Rand she could have revealed something, but he lost her before she could). Then there was Kerb, but even if he tracked him down as Milisair's assassin, this would have lead nowhere, or on yet another false trail. Rand would have lost his time.


And the "big glitch" of Graendal's death aside (a course of events she could not foresee for all sort of reasons, including that Rand suddenly changed and did something that days ago would have been unthinkable to him and out of character), her plans worked, and in the typical Graendal way it was all extremely economical as far as the level of active efforts from her was concerned). Rand did get totally frustrated with the Domani situation, gave up and left. A success, if not for the little bug that thanks to Semirhage Rand suddenly started playing the game like the Forsaken themselves, with none of the usual restraints of Lightsiders, and he used a tactic even the Shadow abandonned during the WOP as too dangerous... The last thing Graendal would have expected is LTT to make massive use of balefire, with the Pattern already weakened.
Reply to message
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 2894 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1627 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1458 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1529 Views
You also ignored... - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1512 Views
and of course, the obvious theme - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 1359 Views
Bah! - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1502 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1439 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1683 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1482 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1414 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 1214 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 1249 Views
that's kind of my whole point - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 1178 Views
Uh, not actually at all really - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1477 Views
*shudders* - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1343 Views
*shrugs* - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1401 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 1297 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1350 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 1241 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1383 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1390 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 1301 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1395 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 1179 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1368 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 1166 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1366 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1368 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 1233 Views
Re: - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1357 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1376 Views
Me, Too. - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 1339 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1437 Views
I believe she's dead - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 1288 Views
Re: I believe she's dead - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1331 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 1188 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1446 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 1196 Views
Stop passing judgments... - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1405 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 1278 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 1266 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 1289 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 1168 Views
Not really - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 1276 Views
Re: Not really - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1357 Views
Re: Not really - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 1271 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 1239 Views
*NM* - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 676 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 1329 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 1227 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1364 Views
read the whole quote - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 1016 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 1161 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 1216 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1340 Views
I don't see any flaws. - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1426 Views
But... - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 1161 Views
Re: But... - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 1325 Views
That is what I thought ... - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 1214 Views
That still doesn't make sense. - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1406 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1409 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 1248 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 1223 Views
Nonsense. - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 1140 Views
Dude, read what I said please... - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 1325 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 1298 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 1177 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 1237 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 1079 Views
We don't know that, exactly - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 1121 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 1207 Views
Seriously? - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 1255 Views
Maybe... - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 1183 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 824 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 776 Views
Ok, in more detail: - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1324 Views
I'm tired of making this point... - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 1073 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 1230 Views
Thoughts - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 1164 Views
But that means she's dead - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 1214 Views
Re: But that means she's dead - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 1309 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 1130 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 1193 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1409 Views
Indeed... - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1392 Views
Re: Indeed... - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 1223 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 1231 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 1206 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 1008 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 1252 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1330 Views
That's not fair - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 1197 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 1134 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 1153 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 1273 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 1372 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 796 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 1315 Views
Not even comparable. - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 1075 Views
Re: Not even comparable. - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 1208 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 1169 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 1214 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 1221 Views
And, just to double post: - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 971 Views
Re: And, just to double post: - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 1299 Views
Nice answer. - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 1281 Views
Re: Nice answer. - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 1218 Views
Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1346 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 1230 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 1252 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 1108 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 1265 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 1211 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 1260 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1329 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 1268 Views
I disagree. - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1627 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 1194 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 1199 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 1248 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 1218 Views
I don't see a flaw - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1298 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 1268 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 1262 Views
Spot on. *NM* - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 786 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 1251 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 759 Views
Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 1197 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1352 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 1129 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 1230 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 1292 Views

Reply to Message