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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour Sidious Send a noteboard - 15/02/2010 03:31:26 PM

That's a completely unfair assertion. Egwene was offered a life of power, decadence and greatness as an AS. Rand was offered a life where he would kill millions of people, the world would lie upon his shoulders, and he would eventually go insane and kill his loved ones to boot. Hardly a fair comparison. Egwene seems immature because she doesn't seem to realise the price that her actions demand until after she acts. She only seems to be aware of how badly she could mess things up in a very vague way.


You only read it that way because you choose to weep along with Rand about his raw deal in life. In actual fact he is the strongest channeler in the world, with legendary knowledge about the One Power, and a ta'veren of unique power. He can single handedly change the entire world to his own liking and almost nothing could stop him. He is the only one who can destroy all the evil in the world, but ridding it of the Forsaken and sealing away Shai'tan. And what is he crying about? That he wants to herd sheep?

By your methods we could say that Egwene was put into a gilded cage, and has to put up with the black ajah, politics and decorum until the end of her days. The difference is that Egwene used her talents. She's not like Rand who whines about how rotten the world is. Rand is the one who is unhinged in this story, not Egwene.

Actually, in EotW, he is anything but paranoid. However, his situation has forced him to carefully consider who is friend or foe. Even in TGS at his darkest hour he still keeps Nynaeve and Min close, he isn't totally gone. After what he has been through, I'd consider that to be a miraculous level of trust.


So he isn't paranoid in the first book, just the twelve that follow?

Egwene on the other hand openly announces her affiliation and allegiance to the WO and WT, and Rand has seen how these groups force their members to think alike. He clearly holds hope that Egwene still supports him, but he is realistic - he understandably wants her to show him some support before he trusts her fully. That only makes sense.


Considering the two never talk, it's a marvel that you guys know what is going to happen. There's nothing wrong with the fact that Egwene isn't going to hand him the Tower on a silver platter. Even if she wanted to, the Hall would not allow it.

And yet even then, in his darkest hour, he pulls back from truly destructive actions and knows what is right. He is the golden standard because his actions have always been made with the best of intentions, except for the last half of TGS (so 1/24th, or ~4% of the series) where as you said, he wasn't himself anyway. Moiraine, Nynaeve and even Cadsuane have come to respect his decision making, if not his behaviour.


So Rand doesn't kill innocent people with the Power. What is your point?

I think if you put Egwene in Rand's position, the world would have been destroyed by now.


Based on what? Did she destroy anything else she's had power over?

As I said, none of them (with the exception of Perrin, who is probably the character who is LEAST dim-witted after Rand - slow but hardly dim) have actually told him anything contrary to his beliefs. He admitted himself that he agreed with Nynaeve's judgement of his actions, and while I respect her for stating her position, his moral compass has been pretty accurate except when it came to the AS at Dumai's Wells, whom I seem to recall he wanted to execute (Perrin stood against him for this; even that fight, however was partly staged so Rand could send him away without revealing his purpose). I didn't agree with Rand in that one scenario, but after what was done to him by those women, I can certainly empathise with him.


In other words Rand had made tough decisions, and so has Egwene.

Come on, Rand would hardly enslave them, especially after his epiphany in TGS. However, if Egwene holds back the support of the Tower to the one man who can save the entire world, then I'd certainly wonder where her moral compass pointed. She might have good intentions, but she needs to realise that the best way to protect her people is to COOPERATE with the DR, not attack him.


Egwene has never suggested attacking him, and Rand has enslaved Aes Sedai. I don't doubt that they deserve it, but if you're Egwene you may be worried that you're next.

My hope for now is that Rand is wise enough (and I think after TGS he is) to allow Egwene to have a rant against him for an hour or two, then after she has cooled down, just say "yes, I'm sorry" to appease her and get things done. I'm certain that if one of them has to take the moral high ground and take a position of humility in order to diffuse the DR/WT tension, it will be Rand, not Egwene.


They'll have a little banter and Rand will still get what he wants. You people need to relax.
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God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene beetnemesis - 14/02/2010 07:02:20 AM 2725 Views
My sentiments exactly, though I think I'm a little more hopeful than you are. Lord Haart - 14/02/2010 07:58:01 AM 1251 Views
Re: My sentiments exactly, though I think I'm a little more hopeful than you are. orius - 14/02/2010 09:26:47 AM 1056 Views
Just like Elayne treated him so well when she kicked him out of Andor? darius_sedai - 14/02/2010 01:35:32 PM 892 Views
What? We are no longer allowed to make predictions of the coming books unless they're pro-Egwene? Lordling - 14/02/2010 02:22:10 PM 998 Views
a theory vs. mindlessly attacking a character because you don't like them? darius_sedai - 14/02/2010 07:00:27 PM 979 Views
It IS kind of ridiculous... but how do YOU think a meeting will go? beetnemesis - 14/02/2010 07:20:08 PM 990 Views
We all do that darius_sedai - 14/02/2010 08:09:51 PM 1046 Views
Is Egwene going to do what Elayne did when she met Rand after tearing down his banners? Cannoli - 15/02/2010 11:25:27 AM 1155 Views
You just KNOW that rather than compliment all the good he's done.... Kronin al'Sulc - 14/02/2010 03:06:09 PM 843 Views
Personally, I'm rooting for Elaida's Foretelling to be fake Skeeve the Great - 14/02/2010 06:56:41 PM 1141 Views
I thought she DID say "This I Foretell?" beetnemesis - 14/02/2010 07:24:19 PM 973 Views
Yes she did. Skeeve the Great - 14/02/2010 07:34:43 PM 1181 Views
No way these are fake... she's not BA and she she says she's having a Foretelling darius_sedai - 14/02/2010 08:24:29 PM 1020 Views
Good point. And the "rent in fire and blood" part is almost certain as well. Lord Haart - 16/02/2010 05:13:29 PM 781 Views
Take a sedative Sidious - 14/02/2010 07:52:32 PM 1018 Views
somethings we can agree on! darius_sedai - 14/02/2010 08:12:05 PM 1006 Views
None of the Emond's Fielders suck up to him. There's difference between hostile and 1-upping beetnemesis - 14/02/2010 09:01:35 PM 991 Views
Right cause Nynaeve is always going around telling people how much Mat's changed darius_sedai - 14/02/2010 09:27:02 PM 996 Views
If you'll recall what Mat did 5 minutes after... beetnemesis - 14/02/2010 11:06:41 PM 1021 Views
Not really darius_sedai - 14/02/2010 11:34:49 PM 915 Views
Re: Not really Gerbeaud - 15/02/2010 03:32:06 PM 923 Views
better than Nynaeve who just lies to herself in order to justify her actions! darius_sedai - 15/02/2010 05:53:17 PM 1030 Views
This is about Egwene, not Nynaeve. Lord Haart - 15/02/2010 06:09:46 PM 987 Views
actually it's about all of the main characters darius_sedai - 15/02/2010 06:13:27 PM 937 Views
Re: actually it's about all of the main characters Gerbeaud - 15/02/2010 06:39:25 PM 1033 Views
Well said. Lord Haart - 15/02/2010 07:20:47 PM 1054 Views
Re: Well said. Gerbeaud - 15/02/2010 07:43:08 PM 886 Views
yet even Siuan seems to understand and accept Egwene's response ... odd that you can hold her to darius_sedai - 16/02/2010 01:55:35 AM 816 Views
Oh, so Elaida's treatment of Sheremin is ok because Sheremin accepted it? Lord Haart - 16/02/2010 06:49:53 AM 978 Views
how is that a good comparrison? darius_sedai - 18/02/2010 12:27:58 AM 837 Views
Re: how is that a good comparrison? Lord Haart - 18/02/2010 03:30:21 AM 1323 Views
watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon darius_sedai - 16/02/2010 01:51:09 AM 1015 Views
Re: watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon Lord Haart - 16/02/2010 07:04:08 AM 994 Views
Alright enough. Will you read the books already? fionwe1987 - 16/02/2010 08:03:39 AM 1054 Views
Fair points, & I somehow forgot that paragraph. Lord Haart - 16/02/2010 05:34:12 PM 971 Views
You've forgotten a lot of paragraphs. fionwe1987 - 16/02/2010 07:58:32 PM 1076 Views
The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason darius_sedai - 16/02/2010 01:34:30 AM 827 Views
Re: The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason Lord Haart - 16/02/2010 07:08:13 AM 934 Views
I'm going to agee with fionwe darius_sedai - 16/02/2010 01:07:37 PM 886 Views
Same old same old Sidious - 16/02/2010 02:01:12 PM 915 Views
that B*TCH! *NM* darius_sedai - 17/02/2010 03:10:30 AM 665 Views
Re: Same old same old orius - 17/02/2010 09:32:03 AM 1038 Views
Yes, but Egwene's is pride - Lord Haart - 15/02/2010 07:04:25 PM 942 Views
I think Nyn has had the best character development, bar none beetnemesis - 15/02/2010 08:52:54 PM 917 Views
Re: I think Nyn has had the best character development, bar none Lord Haart - 15/02/2010 10:39:25 PM 941 Views
I feel Galad could be up there, but we see so little of him beetnemesis - 16/02/2010 12:28:44 AM 940 Views
are you being serious? darius_sedai - 16/02/2010 01:57:29 AM 907 Views
Re: are you being serious? Lord Haart - 16/02/2010 06:55:16 AM 1009 Views
Oh, I don't think so. beetnemesis - 16/02/2010 09:12:57 AM 883 Views
Re: This is about Egwene, not Nynaeve. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/02/2010 10:57:27 PM 989 Views
Re: None of the Emond's Fielders suck up to him. There's difference between hostile and 1-upping orius - 15/02/2010 05:08:49 AM 954 Views
It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour Sidious - 15/02/2010 06:53:30 AM 897 Views
Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour Lord Haart - 15/02/2010 08:41:02 AM 1152 Views
this is hilarious darius_sedai - 15/02/2010 12:45:22 PM 910 Views
Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour Sidious - 15/02/2010 03:31:26 PM 1015 Views
Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour Cannoli - 15/02/2010 11:57:24 AM 1172 Views
Who says Egwene didn't have a destiny? *NM* darius_sedai - 15/02/2010 12:46:10 PM 570 Views
Me. And I'm way smarter than you. Cannoli - 15/02/2010 01:04:48 PM 988 Views
darius_sedai - 15/02/2010 02:12:26 PM 1047 Views
Re: Lord Haart - 15/02/2010 10:40:39 PM 912 Views
Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main darius_sedai - 16/02/2010 01:32:45 AM 870 Views
Re: Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main Lord Haart - 16/02/2010 07:09:52 AM 950 Views
You need a re-read my friend darius_sedai - 16/02/2010 01:14:22 PM 927 Views
Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour Sidious - 15/02/2010 03:48:51 PM 1067 Views
Sidious' problem in a nutshell. Cannoli - 15/02/2010 11:27:12 AM 1020 Views
Re: Sidious' problem in a nutshell. Sidious - 15/02/2010 03:14:55 PM 974 Views
I've never understood the fascination with Lanfear darius_sedai - 15/02/2010 05:52:27 PM 1005 Views
Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene Gerbeaud - 14/02/2010 07:56:23 PM 940 Views
Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene BlackAdder - 14/02/2010 08:55:58 PM 884 Views
I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then darius_sedai - 14/02/2010 08:59:26 PM 1012 Views
Re: I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then BlackAdder - 14/02/2010 09:24:23 PM 850 Views
I don't think so darius_sedai - 14/02/2010 09:30:41 PM 871 Views
Re: I don't think so Gerbeaud - 15/02/2010 03:45:52 PM 973 Views
That's pretty much how I see it too darius_sedai - 15/02/2010 05:54:14 PM 896 Views
I understood little sister to be a mild insult, Moiraine being so young and weak in the OP *NM* Lordling - 16/02/2010 08:25:55 PM 649 Views
maybe a touch patronizing? *NM* darius_sedai - 17/02/2010 12:51:25 PM 525 Views
Appears to be, but his thought process implies it's not as simple as him merely looking down on her. *NM* Lord Haart - 17/02/2010 05:07:19 PM 490 Views
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand Yondaime - 14/02/2010 08:05:40 PM 1116 Views
Re: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand lilltempest - 14/02/2010 11:55:40 PM 1013 Views
Cadsuane needs to spank her. Great Lord of Chaos - 15/02/2010 01:31:49 AM 1000 Views
yeah, that's worked so well on her in the past darius_sedai - 15/02/2010 01:48:05 AM 914 Views
It would be a very amusing moment. Great Lord of Chaos - 15/02/2010 03:01:37 AM 884 Views
IMO it would merely be a hypocritical moment of massive proportions darius_sedai - 15/02/2010 04:45:27 AM 869 Views
and a massive failure Sidious - 15/02/2010 06:57:18 AM 1010 Views
What Egwene needs is to be shown that her actions could harm the tower. Lord Haart - 15/02/2010 08:46:30 AM 788 Views
Actually that role is being played by Covril at the Stump *NM* darius_sedai - 15/02/2010 02:13:42 PM 606 Views
If you hate arrogance, you must hate all the main characters in the series Sidious - 15/02/2010 03:21:48 PM 831 Views
But that's the point Cannoli - 15/02/2010 03:26:03 PM 906 Views
Not quite. Lord Haart - 15/02/2010 07:11:56 PM 928 Views
Everyone else is shown to be a bit small minded. Egwene is implied to be Strong And Wise beetnemesis - 15/02/2010 09:23:47 PM 850 Views
When has she ever actually done that? Rand thinks she will, but so far she's done nothing like it! darius_sedai - 16/02/2010 02:08:23 AM 959 Views
I meant that EVERYONE is bargaining, posturing, etc. beetnemesis - 16/02/2010 02:54:29 AM 867 Views
Well miscommunication is one of the major themes of the series darius_sedai - 16/02/2010 01:17:25 PM 869 Views
the most idiotic theme IMO Sidious - 16/02/2010 03:27:26 PM 947 Views
I don't know if the theme itself is idoitic, but I would totally agree that it's gone nowhere! darius_sedai - 17/02/2010 03:16:30 AM 838 Views
Re: Everyone else is shown to be a bit small minded. Egwene is implied to be Strong And Wise Gerbeaud - 18/02/2010 01:19:00 AM 925 Views
Actually, you can't compare the two. Cannoli - 15/02/2010 12:04:19 PM 985 Views
No, Cannoli has the right of it here. lilltempest - 16/02/2010 06:22:39 PM 1003 Views
Re: No, Cannoli has the right of it here. Lordling - 16/02/2010 06:51:28 PM 1025 Views
Well, all those beatings were in private BlackAdder - 16/02/2010 07:54:00 PM 926 Views
That was the point of the scene in front of the Sitters during the banquet. *NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 23/02/2010 06:58:50 PM 599 Views
Oh the one where Elaida tried to have her way with Egwene while the Sitters looked away? *NM* BlackAdder - 23/02/2010 10:12:04 PM 622 Views
Yes. Elaida wanted Egwene to be cowed in front of her into obedience, which would erode her support RugbyPlayingAshaman - 23/02/2010 10:18:03 PM 961 Views
I actually think it will go the opposite way. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 16/02/2010 03:44:19 PM 946 Views
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