(I don't have the books just now, they're being shipped to my new address).
You've made some good points, and reminded me why I was willing to give Egwene more credit right after I read TGS. However, I would still like to see more of this from her: I definitely share the original poster's apprehensions about her meeting with Rand.
You've made some good points, and reminded me why I was willing to give Egwene more credit right after I read TGS. However, I would still like to see more of this from her: I definitely share the original poster's apprehensions about her meeting with Rand.
Well, others who haven't missed paragraphs showing Egwene as a sensible and stable person ridicule those worries precisely because the books make it clear that Egwene is the last person Rand needs to worry about. It has been made so clear that Egwene understands what Rand is going through that ignoring it and saying she'll go back to bickering with him as they did when they were kids is absurd.
Even in that paragraph, she judges her relationships in a very cold, professional way, which is prudent I guess but also alienates her from those around her.
No it does not. She was cold and professional because it was a professional issue. She cannot look at it as a matter of friendship or love.
Which is precisely why people like Siuan respect her so much and work so hard to keep her Amyrlin. From Siuan's PoV, we know that Egwene is more casual and friendly around Siuan. They are not just successful as mentor and student, but as friends. And Siuan respects the fact that Egwene cannot always treat her as a friend. She couldn't be a good leader if she did.
It is so immature and childish to expect a woman in Egwene's position to act cuddly and sweet when her subordinates disobey her. Its like a kid thinking their teacher hates them because the teacher punished them for their transgressions.
I do think that you're comparison with Rand & Semirhage is baseless, that scenario just wouldn't happen since you can't flee a Forsaken that easily.
Who said flee the Forsaken? Semirhage was shielded. What if they took her and Rand away from the scene before Rand came to and had a chance to speak to the sul'dam?
Rand would have gone ballistic. He'd have had a right to be angry, but he'd have mishandled it badly. He'd have yelled. He would have lost respect.
And I quoted counter-examples as well (eg with Nynaeve, who is a friend and mentor like Siuan is to Egwene).
Yes, I was wondering why you mentioned that, since Rand told her he's going to use her husband's death, and threatened her with the Choedan Kal!
And ultimately, Egwene has experienced a mere fraction (at best) of the stress and hardship that Rand has, so it's little surprise that his temper is more loosely held than hers.
She seems less damaged because she trained herself to overcome the damage. Or do you think two months as damane, when punishment involved being made to feel like your submerged in boiling water, is a walk in the park?
Rand has never been captured and mistreated for so long a time. He has never lost control over his ability for so long a time. His other issues make him have a worse time, but a lot of them are because unlike Egwene, he has refused to bend to the reality of his situation and make the best of it.
I still think that she should have really probed Siuan on why she was rescued (would again like to double check if she did in the books, but can't), because hearing about the Bloodknives would surely have convinced her that lying there unconscious was suicide. There's sufficient evidence to think that this might have actually been the fulfilment of the prophecy (dream?) regarding Gawyn deciding to kill or, or to save her life, in which case he has done the latter.
But we have no idea that Bloodknives were still there. they may have been killed by the Warders, for all we know. And her loyal Novices would have moved her anyway! Egwene is right that no matter how worried Siuan felt, she shouldn't have let that be the basis fo her decision to kidnap Egwene.
But if people judge Egwene more harshly than Rand, you can't forget that Rand has been through far, far worse than her, and faces far greater challenges.
So? Since when did it become okay to be an ass if you were under stress? Rand may face greater stresses, but her also has greater power at his command. Egwene would never have floundered about like Rand did.
Understand that I'm not saying Rand doesn't have reasons. I'm only saying that those reasons can serve to help us understand, but not excuse, his behavior.
I do tend to agree to some extent with some of Cannoli's points about how easy it was to influence and impress the tower AS.
Rand has had about as easy a time when he's tried to impress anyone. He doesn't try, most of the time, that's all.
If she can reshape them into an organisation not only of strength, but also wisdom and service to Randland, then I'll have more faith in her. As I said elsewhere, I think she's done some pretty good things (be it through luck or with the help of others, she still did them), but as a character her attitude irks me more than that of other characters.
She irks you because you're determined to be irked, and because you conveniently forget situations where she shows how sensible and mature she is. There's absolutely nothing wrong with her attitude. Rand needs to learn from her.
God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene
14/02/2010 07:02:20 AM
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My sentiments exactly, though I think I'm a little more hopeful than you are.
14/02/2010 07:58:01 AM
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Re: My sentiments exactly, though I think I'm a little more hopeful than you are.
14/02/2010 09:26:47 AM
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Just like Elayne treated him so well when she kicked him out of Andor?
14/02/2010 01:35:32 PM
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What? We are no longer allowed to make predictions of the coming books unless they're pro-Egwene?
14/02/2010 02:22:10 PM
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a theory vs. mindlessly attacking a character because you don't like them?
14/02/2010 07:00:27 PM
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It IS kind of ridiculous... but how do YOU think a meeting will go?
14/02/2010 07:20:08 PM
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Is Egwene going to do what Elayne did when she met Rand after tearing down his banners?
15/02/2010 11:25:27 AM
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You just KNOW that rather than compliment all the good he's done....
14/02/2010 03:06:09 PM
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Personally, I'm rooting for Elaida's Foretelling to be fake
14/02/2010 06:56:41 PM
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No way these are fake... she's not BA and she she says she's having a Foretelling
14/02/2010 08:24:29 PM
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Good point. And the "rent in fire and blood" part is almost certain as well.
16/02/2010 05:13:29 PM
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Take a sedative
14/02/2010 07:52:32 PM
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None of the Emond's Fielders suck up to him. There's difference between hostile and 1-upping
14/02/2010 09:01:35 PM
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Right cause Nynaeve is always going around telling people how much Mat's changed
14/02/2010 09:27:02 PM
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If you'll recall what Mat did 5 minutes after...
14/02/2010 11:06:41 PM
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Not really
14/02/2010 11:34:49 PM
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Re: Not really
15/02/2010 03:32:06 PM
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better than Nynaeve who just lies to herself in order to justify her actions!
15/02/2010 05:53:17 PM
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This is about Egwene, not Nynaeve.
15/02/2010 06:09:46 PM
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actually it's about all of the main characters
15/02/2010 06:13:27 PM
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Re: actually it's about all of the main characters
15/02/2010 06:39:25 PM
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Well said.
15/02/2010 07:20:47 PM
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Re: Well said.
15/02/2010 07:43:08 PM
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yet even Siuan seems to understand and accept Egwene's response ... odd that you can hold her to
16/02/2010 01:55:35 AM
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Oh, so Elaida's treatment of Sheremin is ok because Sheremin accepted it?
16/02/2010 06:49:53 AM
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watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon
16/02/2010 01:51:09 AM
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Re: watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon
16/02/2010 07:04:08 AM
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Alright enough. Will you read the books already?
16/02/2010 08:03:39 AM
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Fair points, & I somehow forgot that paragraph.
16/02/2010 05:34:12 PM
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You've forgotten a lot of paragraphs.
16/02/2010 07:58:32 PM
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The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason
16/02/2010 01:34:30 AM
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Re: The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason
16/02/2010 07:08:13 AM
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Yes, but Egwene's is pride -
15/02/2010 07:04:25 PM
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I think Nyn has had the best character development, bar none
15/02/2010 08:52:54 PM
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Re: None of the Emond's Fielders suck up to him. There's difference between hostile and 1-upping
15/02/2010 05:08:49 AM
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It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 06:53:30 AM
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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 08:41:02 AM
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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 03:31:26 PM
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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 11:57:24 AM
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Who says Egwene didn't have a destiny? *NM*
15/02/2010 12:46:10 PM
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Me. And I'm way smarter than you.
15/02/2010 01:04:48 PM
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15/02/2010 02:12:26 PM
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Re:
15/02/2010 10:40:39 PM
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Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main
16/02/2010 01:32:45 AM
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Re: Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main
16/02/2010 07:09:52 AM
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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 03:48:51 PM
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Sidious' problem in a nutshell.
15/02/2010 11:27:12 AM
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Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene
14/02/2010 07:56:23 PM
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Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene
14/02/2010 08:55:58 PM
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I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then
14/02/2010 08:59:26 PM
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Re: I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then
14/02/2010 09:24:23 PM
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I don't think so
14/02/2010 09:30:41 PM
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Re: I don't think so
15/02/2010 03:45:52 PM
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That's pretty much how I see it too
15/02/2010 05:54:14 PM
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I understood little sister to be a mild insult, Moiraine being so young and weak in the OP *NM*
16/02/2010 08:25:55 PM
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maybe a touch patronizing? *NM*
17/02/2010 12:51:25 PM
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Appears to be, but his thought process implies it's not as simple as him merely looking down on her. *NM*
17/02/2010 05:07:19 PM
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand
14/02/2010 08:05:40 PM
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Re: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand
14/02/2010 11:55:40 PM
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Cadsuane needs to spank her.
15/02/2010 01:31:49 AM
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yeah, that's worked so well on her in the past
15/02/2010 01:48:05 AM
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It would be a very amusing moment.
15/02/2010 03:01:37 AM
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IMO it would merely be a hypocritical moment of massive proportions
15/02/2010 04:45:27 AM
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and a massive failure
15/02/2010 06:57:18 AM
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What Egwene needs is to be shown that her actions could harm the tower.
15/02/2010 08:46:30 AM
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If you hate arrogance, you must hate all the main characters in the series
15/02/2010 03:21:48 PM
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Everyone else is shown to be a bit small minded. Egwene is implied to be Strong And Wise
15/02/2010 09:23:47 PM
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When has she ever actually done that? Rand thinks she will, but so far she's done nothing like it!
16/02/2010 02:08:23 AM
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I meant that EVERYONE is bargaining, posturing, etc.
16/02/2010 02:54:29 AM
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Well miscommunication is one of the major themes of the series
16/02/2010 01:17:25 PM
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the most idiotic theme IMO
16/02/2010 03:27:26 PM
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I don't know if the theme itself is idoitic, but I would totally agree that it's gone nowhere!
17/02/2010 03:16:30 AM
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Re: Everyone else is shown to be a bit small minded. Egwene is implied to be Strong And Wise
18/02/2010 01:19:00 AM
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No, Cannoli has the right of it here.
16/02/2010 06:22:39 PM
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Well, all those beatings were in private
16/02/2010 07:54:00 PM
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That was the point of the scene in front of the Sitters during the banquet. *NM*
23/02/2010 06:58:50 PM
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Oh the one where Elaida tried to have her way with Egwene while the Sitters looked away?
*NM*
23/02/2010 10:12:04 PM
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Yes. Elaida wanted Egwene to be cowed in front of her into obedience, which would erode her support
23/02/2010 10:18:03 PM
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