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I see ironclad Send a noteboard - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM

...was the timing. Why now? The Wildings are through the wall and their leader likes Jon just fine. The Night Watch and queen's men certainly can't take on all wildlings, if that's what this still was about. Also: Jon set out to take on the house that probably killed Stannis. Which isn't his job as commander, but still. Why would the queen and the witch take him out of the game at this point?


Selyse and Melisandre weren't behind the assassination, it was Bowen Marsh and a few other members of the Watch. Basically, Jon had just announced he was deserting to go kill Bolton. At that point they concluded he was just as much a traitor and deserter as say Will back in the first chapter of AGoT and decided he had to die. It was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I took Melisandre and the queen's men disappearing from the hall where Jon announced his plan as a sign that they had enough and something bad was about to happen.
*MySmiley*

You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling.
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread Legolas - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6698 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. ironclad - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2244 Views
I have it! *NM* fionwe1987 - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1214 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2440 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* ironclad - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2402 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. Tom - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 2112 Views
It'll be tight. Werthead - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2441 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised! Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM 2329 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2215 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1094 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding Roland00 - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2253 Views
Hero of the book? Werthead - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2544 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2325 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2225 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ClubCaved - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2223 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2271 Views
That's what I thought too. Jessie - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2242 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* Urza - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1281 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM 1286 Views
Asshole of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2426 Views
Agreed. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2371 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM* RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM 1149 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2229 Views
Seriously... Urza - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2197 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 2142 Views
Idiot of the book. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2458 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1213 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2325 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking. Libby - 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM 2605 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2204 Views
She thinks both Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 2142 Views
So... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2192 Views
No, it's him. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 2223 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* Dark Knight - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1291 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1250 Views
Great Ending ClubCaved - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2438 Views
Really? ironclad - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2391 Views
Re: Really? Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 2026 Views
Re: Great Ending samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2184 Views
YES! Larry - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 2004 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Stephen - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2175 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 2152 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) aragornital - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2391 Views
Probably not. Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2350 Views
Re: Probably not. aragornital - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2201 Views
I think the two are mixed up. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2269 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 2107 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... ironclad - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2264 Views
They didn't. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2307 Views
I see ironclad - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2224 Views
Didn't Jon just announced Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2149 Views
Something I totally missed first time through Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2580 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Cannoli - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2479 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought A Deathwatch Guard - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2321 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Jessie - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 2123 Views
Well that brings new meaning Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 2076 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2308 Views
Agreed ironclad - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2304 Views
There's another... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 2111 Views
There's that... Legolas - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 2160 Views
It's worse than that... fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2207 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1185 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 2370 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2300 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Zaphod - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2227 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. Libby - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 2305 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 2285 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 2167 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2399 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 2164 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. Tom - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2389 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. everynametaken - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2272 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. Tom - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 2122 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. Zach - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 2168 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. heartbreak - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2359 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2272 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2172 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM 2355 Views
Yeah, I agree. Stephen - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2215 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2207 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM 2229 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2216 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. Libby - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2302 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts Larry - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2373 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! ironclad - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 2148 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 2133 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1174 Views
I think you let him off too easily. Tom - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2258 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened Larry - 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM 2218 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) Libby - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2444 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... Zach - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2568 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... ironclad - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2357 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1168 Views
Davos is probably my favourite Stephen - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 2019 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Variant - 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM 2324 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM 2171 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet Stephen - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2205 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. Legolas - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2164 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague Urza - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2180 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... Legolas - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 2150 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? ironclad - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2222 Views
That could be it. *NM* Stephen - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 1081 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones DomA - 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM 2236 Views
That's how I read it as well. Six trebuchets opening up. *NM* Michael - 11/08/2011 12:19:09 PM 1140 Views
Stannis ironclad - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2156 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed Tom - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2212 Views
I highly doubt he's dead A Deathwatch Guard - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2206 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2252 Views
Yeah... Urza - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 2130 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 2298 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Libby - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2277 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Werthead - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2324 Views
Alternatively.. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2151 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? Tom - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2208 Views
None of them. Werthead - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 2107 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* Tom - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1172 Views
Opinion Werthead - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 2148 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant. Tom - 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM 2022 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 2133 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? Tom - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2167 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 2065 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2235 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 2122 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. Tom - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 2119 Views
Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 2120 Views
Of course it does Tom - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 2100 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2232 Views
Perhaps... A Deathwatch Guard - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 2137 Views
Its simple... Urza - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 2138 Views
I disagree... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2196 Views
Bullshit. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 2077 Views
Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1991 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though. Werthead - 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM 2024 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them A Deathwatch Guard - 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM 2153 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world. Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM 2184 Views
Some thoughts... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 2144 Views
It's not an objective morality. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 2093 Views
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 2170 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 2070 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 2095 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1962 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 2029 Views
Whats the best new POV Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 2166 Views
Barristan Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 2115 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2219 Views
Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1215 Views
thirded. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 2004 Views
Absolutely *NM* ironclad - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1287 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2312 Views
A bit. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2248 Views
Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2197 Views
Re: Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2186 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything Roland00 - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2231 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything DomA - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 2092 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face Roland00 - 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM 2263 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 2017 Views
Re: DomA - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2236 Views
I like your theory. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2252 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2223 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Roland00 - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 2091 Views
Eh? Elaine - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2227 Views
This is complicated. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2454 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? Tom - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 2118 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people Roland00 - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2213 Views
Yup. Werthead - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 2059 Views
Also... fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 2129 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out Elaine - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 2153 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... aragornital - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 2159 Views
Allow me Elaine - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 2029 Views
thanks *NM* aragornital - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1156 Views
I thought this was pretty clear HousealThor - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 2043 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2449 Views
Interesting idea. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2226 Views
Re: Interesting idea. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2164 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2156 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2365 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? DomA - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2304 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread jwk - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2343 Views
Okay. I suck. jwk - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 2101 Views
Let me rephrase that... jwk - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 2088 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. Kotagg - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2678 Views
Hmm ironclad - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2573 Views
you are correct Jim - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2167 Views
Yup. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 2025 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... fionwe1987 - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2154 Views
I'm uncertain about that Larry - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 2140 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Werthead - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2415 Views
Where did he say that? fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2286 Views
In interviews Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2234 Views
A little thought about Jon... aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2300 Views
Excellent point. Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2233 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... The Doctor - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2263 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that ironclad - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2335 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed. Libby - 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM 2126 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? Chas - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2171 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? Werthead - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 2093 Views
Jon? Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2138 Views
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